Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 10-03-2002, 05:29 PM

(double post)

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

RJS · 10-03-2002, 05:38 PM

Quote:

No, that is not the first question at all. The bottom-line question is, "Why should I believe that God exists?" I'm still waiting for some person to give me a good reason to believe, since God--if such a thing exists--has not seen fit to do so.

I am not sure I appreciate the difference in your question and debating "Does God exist?"

Jobar · 10-03-2002, 06:08 PM

RJS:
"I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that the bible is the Word - not necessarily literal and inerrant, but possibly. But most importantly (to the thread question), I believe God is just - I believe that those who deny God or do not live a life of repentance from sin will get justice - you can plead your case at the time and I am certain justice will be served - it isn't up to me. I believe those that truly repent will receive total forgiveness from God."

Well and simply stated, RJS. None of us here, I believe, would take from you the comfort you get from your belief.

When you ask us to believe these things though, and we ask the questions which occur to us concerning your beliefs- none of your answers make sense to us! Doesn't it give you pause, that there are many here born, raised, educated in the Christian religion, who have concluded- often after years of intense and heartfelt study!- that it is all untruth? Yes, you are right that the initial question- the question this whole forum is about, in sober fact!- is the central one. The thing is, we find that honestly seeking the true answer for the question "Does God exist?" leads us inexorably, inescapeably, to a resounding "NO!" We find that any other answer requires us to either lie to ourselves; or to shut our eyes, stop our ears, refuse to use the mind which is our best tool.

We do not understand how you reach your conclusion that God- specifically, the God of the Bible- exists. We ask and ask, and get no sensible answers. If you come here to tell us about your beliefs, well and good- that is one of the main functions of this board. But if you cannot answer our questions, and we *can* answer yours- what does this say about who has reached the correct conclusion?

RJS · 10-03-2002, 06:28 PM

Quote:

We do not understand how you reach your conclusion that God- specifically, the God of the Bible- exists. We ask and ask, and get no sensible answers. If you come here to tell us about your beliefs, well and good- that is one of the main functions of this board. But if you cannot answer our questions, and we *can* answer yours- what does this say about who has reached the correct conclusion?

I didnt come here to tell you about my beliefs. I listed some of them to illustrate why sticking with the first sentence made sense. Of course, the first reply I got was that question "Does God exist?" was worded incorrectly

You at least seem okay with the question - thank God for small victories

This next statement you make is painfully presumptuous.

Quote:

But if you cannot answer our questions, and we *can* answer yours- what does this say about who has reached the correct conclusion?

We get no "sensible" answers for many of the questions we ask. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I am going to go find a post I made on my belief in God - you wont find it sensible, but I do.

10-03-2002, 06:33 PM

Quote:

I could say this is a common response from someone who either has not themselves read the gospels systematically and critically, or who has accepted some of the black box explanations for obvious contradictions, such as attempting to explain two conflicting geneologies, each tracing Jesus patrilineally as Jewish law then dictated, through Joseph, back to David, each directly conflicting and invalidating the other, by claiming one is really the line of Mary, per Origen, which sets aside the plain text and all the laws and practices of the culture. Of course never answering how Jesus could be descended of David if either line traces through Joseph who was not his father, Jesus being virgin born.

In my Catholicism it is believed that a virgin birth must be juxtaposed with a fornicated birth from a malevolent female. The virgin birth is from Mary while a fornicated birth is from Eve with Mary being from the TOL and Eve from the TOK. The difference is that a virgin birth is incipient from God while a fornicated birth is from carnal desire as per Jn.1:13.

The difference between these two is that no evangelist ruptured Joseph�s spiritual hymen (his integrity) to drag him to the altar. Contrary to this Joseph was informed of this upcoming rebirth in a dream that was initiated by Mary who was the cause of this same dream because dreams take place between the conscious and subconscious mind. So we can say that for Joseph rebirth came as a thief in the night which was incipient from God as declared in the Annunciation that came across as a dream in the mind of Joseph. This dream was followed by Mary�s Canticle in which she declared that from this day on she saw fit to take control of the life of Joseph and lead him, as if by the nose, to the state of mind he was at birth and have him start all over again. The difference would be that Mary instead of Eve would be in charge of his destiny.

It then, the birth of Jesus was the rebirth of Joseph it was according to Jewish tradition from the line of David and back to Adam in Luke to demonstrate the foundation of a new religion without any obligations towards Judaism.

GeoTheo · 10-03-2002, 06:34 PM

I think that is really funny jobar. We have a good friend you don't believe in and that should give us pause. Holy Cow! There are people that aren't experiencing the joy and peace I am experiencing through my relationship with God! It must not be real! I better give it up!
That makes no sense at all. I like black olives on my pizza some people don't. Should that give me pause? What if I like them? If others don't like them that means they might not really taste good after all? You mean all those years I've been eating them thinking they tasted good, when really they don't taste good at all I just thought they did? You mean I've been had?!?! Oh the anger!!!
Give me a break. We aren't sitting around hoping there is a God. We know God. Faith is a way of knowing. It's experiential.

Philosoft · 10-03-2002, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo:


We aren't sitting around hoping there is a God. We know God. Faith is a way of knowing. It's experiential.

Interesting. Is it possible to have faith in the truth of things that are not true? Corollary: Are all things one professes faith in necessarily true?

10-03-2002, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
Well and simply stated, RJS. None of us here, I believe, would take from you the comfort you get from your belief.

I agree with the above and think that RJS does not belong here just yet.

GeoTheo · 10-03-2002, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


It is interesting to me as a relatively new Christian (less than 2 years), that I would have said the same thing two years ago (even though I was a theist at the time). But with Christ, the clearest most truthful posts on this entire thread are the "pride" posts by Geo and Van. With Christ, the truth is so easy to see in the bible - every word leaps out with meaning, when historically it was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me. It is like Christ provides the special decoder glasses. With Christ, the blinders are taken off - the inverted world of the "last shall be first and the first shall be last" and "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me will find it" all makes sense. I don't consider myself a loser. Sinner and unworthy, yes. Loser, no.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Well loser is a bit harsh. I could have chosen a better one. Wretch is a popular choice. I think the point is you don't stay a wretch, but you really do have to admit your sinfulness and powerlesness in order to be saved as you know.

RJS · 10-03-2002, 06:55 PM

Quote:

I agree with the above and think that RJS does not belong here just yet.

please elaborate - hardly sounds like a thought from a freethinker.

10-03-2002, 05:29 PM	#151
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	(double post) [ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

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10-03-2002, 06:08 PM	#153
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	RJS: "I believe in God. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that the bible is the Word - not necessarily literal and inerrant, but possibly. But most importantly (to the thread question), I believe God is just - I believe that those who deny God or do not live a life of repentance from sin will get justice - you can plead your case at the time and I am certain justice will be served - it isn't up to me. I believe those that truly repent will receive total forgiveness from God." Well and simply stated, RJS. None of us here, I believe, would take from you the comfort you get from your belief. When you ask us to believe these things though, and we ask the questions which occur to us concerning your beliefs- none of your answers make sense to us! Doesn't it give you pause, that there are many here born, raised, educated in the Christian religion, who have concluded- often after years of intense and heartfelt study!- that it is all untruth? Yes, you are right that the initial question- the question this whole forum is about, in sober fact!- is the central one. The thing is, we find that honestly seeking the true answer for the question "Does God exist?" leads us inexorably, inescapeably, to a resounding "NO!" We find that any other answer requires us to either lie to ourselves; or to shut our eyes, stop our ears, refuse to use the mind which is our best tool. We do not understand how you reach your conclusion that God- specifically, the God of the Bible- exists. We ask and ask, and get no sensible answers. If you come here to tell us about your beliefs, well and good- that is one of the main functions of this board. But if you cannot answer our questions, and we can answer yours- what does this say about who has reached the correct conclusion?

10-03-2002, 06:34 PM	#156
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	I think that is really funny jobar. We have a good friend you don't believe in and that should give us pause. Holy Cow! There are people that aren't experiencing the joy and peace I am experiencing through my relationship with God! It must not be real! I better give it up! That makes no sense at all. I like black olives on my pizza some people don't. Should that give me pause? What if I like them? If others don't like them that means they might not really taste good after all? You mean all those years I've been eating them thinking they tasted good, when really they don't taste good at all I just thought they did? You mean I've been had?!?! Oh the anger!!! Give me a break. We aren't sitting around hoping there is a God. We know God. Faith is a way of knowing. It's experiential.

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