tronvillain

Amen-Moses:
Exactly how does that not really tie in with objectification? So men enjoy their partner's sexual gratification more than their own sexual gratification. That says nothing about whether or not they view women as sexual objects.

Are fear and fantasy in fact closely linked, or is that just another unfounded assertion on your part? Is this supposed to be support for your other assertion, that a common male fantasy is having one's partner sleep with another man? It's pretty pathetic, especially in light of its total lack of support otherwise.

Hey, I've faked an orgasm once or twice - sometimes it's just not worth the effort, and it can be a lot more difficult for women than men. MGM mutilation may be far more prevalent than FGM, but the degree of mutilation is generally insignificant in comparison, so it is not a red herring.

snatchbalance

AM,

Well, I talked to my GF about the faking of orgasims. She said something like this:

1. If a woman likes a man she may "fake" an orgasim to confirm his sexual prowess. She went on to say that such a "fake" orgasim, is not realy "fake". It may just mean that she did not have a complete physical climax.

According to her, basically, if a woman likes a man enough to have sex with him, the sex, by definition, will be good. If a woman has sex with a man for other reasons, the sex had better be good, or no orgasim, fake or otherwise.

2. If a woman just wants a man to finish, there will be no fake orgasim.

Exactly how this all relates to objectification, beats me.

sb

Dr Rick

"We know they were immature because LadyShea danced for them. If they were not immature, LadyShea would not have danced for them."

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

tronvillain

Precambrian Carl:
What, because some people constantly make unsupported assertions and other people call them on it? Yes, I've noticed that.

Yes, why is so difficult for you to understand that men watching nude women dancing on a stage is not inherently immature?

I will note that you have simply repeated your assertion rather than supporting in any way. You didn't even attempt to differentiate between the various things that transfix people.

I would be astonished if he had an opinion about the maturity of his clientele, and I imagine what his customers have in common is a desire to see scantily clad or naked women gyrate. So what?

I am not seeing any actual criteria for maturity here, which makes the statement "I know that some mean grow up and some do not" somewhat meaningless. Perhaps we should ask LadyShea if she felt all the men she danced for were immature.

So, in other words, your answer to the question "Why are watching porn or going to strip clubs indicative of immaturity?" is "They just are." Not especially informative or convincing I'm afraid.

Oh, I can think of countless examples of adults I would label "immature" but as we disagree about pornography and strip clubs I am forced to investigate your criteria to resolve the conflict. What list are you talking about anyway? I can't recall LadyShea making a list of immature characteristics.

No, I do not accept that the men LadyShea works with are immature. I don't know them. I've never met them. I have only ever heard about a few of them. Which ones are you talking about?

Neither Christianity nor porn is significantly marketed. Christianity is perpetuated by parents indoctrinating their children, so it can be seen as dependent on immaturity and gullibility. Pornography is essentially only marketed within other pornography, and it is difficult to see how gullibility plays any role - people want nudity and sex, and they get nudity and sex.

I would not use any words to describe those customers - I don't know enough about them to do otherwise. Teenagers actively seek out pornography and then some stop seeking it. Is this growing up? You simply assert that it is, as you have done over and over, without supporting it.

As before, I would not use any words to describe those "customers" - I don't know them well enough. Are they uneducated? I am sure some of them are, perhaps even most of them. Are they superstitious? Depends on what you mean by "superstitious" - they apparently believe in Christian mythology, but beyond that I have no idea. Are they gullible? Perhaps in certain areas, especially where Christianity is involved. What is your point?

So very few people start smoking or drinking beer at the age of twenty-five. So what? Very few people start playing the piano at the age of twenty-five as well. You will have to come up with something more than that to justify "from a marketing perspective, they are the same." They have different effects, different side effects, different levels of addiction, different social pressures for and against them, and so on.

ju'iblex

i dont see the relvance of the quote to your argument, as far as it goes, its hardly relevant to objectification of women vs. men.

I personally would like to see some more examples of the wide-spread objectification of men in western society from you Amen-Moses. that is, leaving out Cosmopolitan magazines et al. where the target audience isnt exactly made ambiguous. as soon as a i have some time to quit from my current reality i will be more than happy to take you on a tour of western society's views on women, if you like.

snatchbalance

jubilex,

I think the point is, why would men care about the pleasure of an "object"? It seems obvious that many men, perhaps a majority of men, do care about the women in thier lives in many different ways.

I guess that the flip side of that is, in many cases, those same men can then go out and enjoy the services of a prostitute, view pornography, go to strip clubs, etc. For thier own reasons, many women don't seem to like these aspects of male behavior.

Personnaly, I think the women in many of these cases have a problem of thier own; thier jealosy and envy are showing. Trying to stop men from being men(or a person from being a person) is pathological in it's own right, IMHO.

Now you may retort, but the men have a double standard, it's Ok for them, but not for women. Well, to give you a complete answer, I kind of have to refer you to the sciobiological history of the human race. But, suffice to say, women know who thier offspring are, historically, men have never been sure.

SB

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

Precambrian Carl

Precambrian Carl provides an example of circulus in demonstrando: LadyShea...once danced for immature men.

"We know they were immature because LadyShea danced for them. If they were not immature, LadyShea would not have danced for them."

You could also add generalization. I should be using primarily immature.

You may delete all references to LadyShea’s dancing. That does not change who the clubs market to and the type of men she works with now.

Carl

Dr Rick

Well, now I'm confused; how does the potential for cuckoldry relate to prostitution and pornography?

Rick

snatchbalance

Rick,

Well, maybe I wasn't clear enough, or maybe take another look at the post. You seem to have taken portions from different points I was making and combined them into a nonsquetor.

Anyway:

1. Some men like to engage in various sexual activities outside thier primary relationship.

2. Some men say this is "OK" for men, but not for women. Hence, the common charge of there being a double standard.

3. My contention is that a male has more at stake in controling the sexual behavior of a female, than vice versa. A female always knows if a particular child issued from her body or not; she knows that the child is hers. Historically, a male has no way of being sure if the child is his or not.

4. This is why, at least on a cultural basis, it has become "OK" for men to engage in sexual dalience, but not females, IMO.

There is also an evolutionary aspect of this situation that I have not touched on.

SB

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]

[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: snatchbalance ]</p>

Precambrian Carl

Tronvillain,

You have worn me out. I am thinking about posting a subject on atheism, language and hypocrisy in the future. I will have to include immature in my discussion of words which have numerous definitions.

I wrote what I thought was an explanation for luvluv’s original post. Man’s objectification of women and a 45 year old leaving his wife and children for a younger mate are due to the same thing. The men are immature, self-centered individuals who refuse to grow up. They want to return to the fraternity at college. They want to go back to high school. They want to go back to the strip club. They want to be single again. I do not hold these men in very high regard, as you might have guessed.

After being critical of the dissertations in many of these threads, I honestly feel embarrassed. I have never considered myself a wordy person. In the past, I have actually prided myself on being concise. Maybe you have brought out another aspect of me I had not realized existed.

I have responded to a few of your points below. I simply cannot respond to it all or continue after this. I have to go back to work. I did not realize this would be similar to listening to a great piece of music. I find it difficult to work and listen at the same time.


I would not use any words to describe those customers - I don't know enough about them to do otherwise. Teenagers actively seek out pornography and then some stop seeking it. Is this growing up? You simply assert that it is, as you have done over and over, without supporting it.

But marketing and sales departments do use these words. They simply translate them into demographics so as not to insult the people who spend the money. Proctor and Gamble wrote television commercials 50 years ago – at the 12 year old level. That was their intention. This could have been a reflection of the educational level of housewives at that time. However, they still write commercials at the 12 year old level. Do you honestly believe that anyone will mention this outside a meeting of marketing and sales executives?

Some readers might think that I meant to write 12th grade level. You read 12 year old correctly.


As before, I would not use any words to describe those "customers" - I don't know them well enough. Are they uneducated? I am sure some of them are, perhaps even most of them. Are they superstitious? Depends on what you mean by "superstitious" - they apparently believe in Christian mythology, but beyond that I have no idea. Are they gullible? Perhaps in certain areas, especially where Christianity is involved. What is your point?

This is very interesting coming from an infidel. How many times have you seen these words written by atheists, humanists or freethinkers over the years? They use these words because they are confident (they know? believe? think?) they apply to the large majority of Christians and an even larger majority of fundamentalist ones. This “depends on what you mean” business is what makes many of these threads so difficult.


So very few people start smoking or drinking beer at the age of twenty-five. So what? Very few people start playing the piano at the age of twenty-five as well. You will have to come up with something more than that to justify "from a marketing perspective, they are the same." They have different effects, different side effects, different levels of addiction, different social pressures for and against them, and so on.

I cannot compare chemicals and physical addictions with music. I was talking about marketing, not social effects. That is another discussion.

Let me give you another example. Religion and the cosmetic industry sell the same product – hope. Their side effects are different. However, the product is the same. Why do I have to justify this? This is well known in the sales and marketing business (I apologize, another fallacy). Other “things” which are sold to individuals are superiority, acceptance, recognition, power, self esteem and “I now have what my neighbor/colleague/competitor has”.

Years ago, when working for an instrument manufacturing firm, I took a course from the top sales representative out of New York City - “toughest place to sell in the country”. I did not think of asking him to justify the things he discussed.


I am going to take a stab at one other thing before I go back to work. I think the problem might be age. When my wife comes home and tells me about a new executive at her company who is immature or a jerk (immature jerk would be considered redundant by some, including me), no explanation is necessary. Now, if we talked about our work in front of our 17 year old, I can understand her asking her mother to explain. She has never had the experience of working with or for an immature man.

A large percentage of the women reading this who are above the age of 24 would not have to ask my wife for a single explanation. They would not have to ask what was said or in what tone of voice it was delivered. They would not have to ask what facial expressions she saw or the body language used by the man. They would not have to ask what type of language was used or how he referred to his subordinates.

We could argue whether the large percentage referred to above is 90% or 70%, but that is not the point. The point is that women and mature men, both above the age of 24, know exactly who my wife is talking about. A detailed list of criteria is unnecessary.

If others reading this do not know who my wife is talking about, please be grateful and consider yourselves very lucky. I can almost guarantee that you will have some experience with my wife’s superior within the next five years. It was not until I was out of college when I encountered men like this.

I realize the two of us could not come to an agreement on the concept of immaturity. However, I do believe some readers learned a few things about sales and marketing.

Bye for now.

Carl