Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Barcode · 07-09-2003, 12:30 PM

Hummmm. I don't understand the response I got to my message, or maybe I'm being deliberately obtuse. " You come first in my life. But God also comes, or should come, first. On different existences. "

Why do I have a feeling this is the beginning of the end .... goodness, maybe I need to borrow some of her good ole Christian morals and stop being so selfish.

No, I'm not considering making any sort of proper committment to my girlfriend.

What I'm discovering is that it's not so much the belief ... but more of an incompatibility in the way of thinking. It's frustrating to see someone accept things without asking questions, or assuming some things are right because it's what they have always been taught.

But I guess this mode of thinking is especially prevalent amongst devout religious types.

Gawd, I need to find myself an atheist girlfriend ... less complications that way!

dimpledop · 07-09-2003, 06:22 PM

Barcode - and - I ate Pascal's Wafer:
You need to discuss the issue of theism (and it *is* an issue) before going any further. If her behaviour is bothering you and you don't deal with it openly and constructively, then it simply cannot get any better. For example, just how swimmingly do you think things would go with regards to raising children? To be blunt and perhaps a bit harsh, get it straightened out now, or just get out.

It's not up to you alone to accommodate her views, and the behaviours associated with those views. She has to accommodate your views, too. And "accommodate" does not include the occasional snide remark that belittles your non-theism, unless of course she has no problem hearing a snide remark from you about her theism. Fair is fair. That said, who wants to constantly be on guard to defend oneself from subtle but very real jabs against his (or her) identity?

And whatever you do, do not try to understand the gobbledygook about a relationship with God being on another plateau... Of course such comments don't make sense if you don't believe in a god. Try and be tolerant and understanding *of her needs*, but not of a relationship that doesn't actually exist.

As I ate Pascal's Wafer wrote, "It is wrong to put an invisible friend above your partner if the partner is not comfortable with it." And it is pretty hard to be comfortable coming in second place to an invisible friend.

Barcode:
While it's important to say that she loves you every now and again, it wasn't necessary for her to say that a non-religious person couldn't love you as much as she does. That strikes me as just a tad self-righteous. And to flip things around, since you are a "non-religious" person, how does she feel about how much you love her? Does she think you can't love her quite as much as a religious person could?

Flipping things around again, what if you told her that a religious person couldn't love her as much as you love her? How would that make her feel? Think about your answer... So then why is it okay for her to make such a remark?

Trying to sort things out, without compromising your worldview, does not make you selfish. Please do not suggest that christians are, by virtue of their religion, less selfish. There are plenty of non-christians who are not selfish and plenty of christians who are.

I Ate Pascal's Wafer:
Interesting that your girlfriend got more serious about her theism not too long after you deconverted. Do you think her prioritizing would be any different if you weren't in a long-distance relationship?

You mentioned that in an atheist/theist relationship the two parties need to come to an agreement. I would add that they both need to keep to that agreement. But people change over time, and sometimes even with an agreement, things don't work out because one person no longer feels he or she can live with that agreement. Some of the compromises may become too unpalatable to handle.

I hope the both of you find the best way to deal with your respective situations. They sound so similar it's easy to get the two of you mixed up in this thread. Be honest and respectful to yourselves and to your girlfriends and you will figure out the best solution. Good luck to both of you.

soluble_fish · 07-10-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barcode
" You come first in my life. But God also comes, or should come, first. On different existences. "

barcode, if you were responding to my post, let me clarify...

it wasn't my intent wasn't to try to confuse things with the "different existences" thing. let me say it this way: i love my wife. in that statement, there is no qualifier, no "because god says so" or "because that's loving god by proxy". however, when "god" is considered, that love has the added meaning of being love for god. that is an interpretation of the love, but is not the love itself.

does that clarify my position at all?

sf

Barcode · 07-10-2003, 10:58 PM

^ Oh sorry, the different existences remark was a comment my girlfriend made.

I think it makes sense. She thinks god is love, so the feelings she has for me are partly to do with that. She can't seperate the two things, so I'm told.

It's taking some mental gymnastics on my part to understand it all

I guess the main thing I need to be concerned with is that she obviously loves me, and she thinks God is helping her with that. That I can live with. Placing (what I consider to be) a mythical entity above me I can't; but she said last night the most meaningful relationship is the one with me, with another person.

So maybe we're beginning to make some progress ... I see things as either/or situations and to her it's all part of the same thing. Best thing I can do is stop stressing and go along with the flow ... over analyzing this will do me no good anymore.

I do appreciate your words soluble_fish

Bumble Bee Tuna · 07-10-2003, 11:22 PM

I'm in a atheist/catholic relationship and I must say I never feel that way at all. In fact for the most part God/religion never enters the picture. So I guess I'm lucky. Every so often I get optimistic and think she'll deconvert.

-B

soluble_fish · 07-11-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barcode
I do appreciate your words soluble_fish

*blushes*

what may also help, i guess, is that existentially -- here and now -- she loves you. the love/relationship thing with god is an abstract thing... something that can't be "lived" except by proxy -- through her relationship with you.

sf

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 07-13-2003, 05:46 PM

Barcode,

Hey, sorry I haven't responded in a few days. I had some company over the past few days and got sucked into the real world briefly.

Yeah, as far as I know my g/f knows it bothers me. At least I've told her that it does, but she still feels like it's something she "needs to do". I'll talk with her again at an appropriate time so that it can really sink in that this bothers me.

Quote:

I think it's a matter of *degree.* Going to church for an hour on Sunday's is more than fine with me; but attending every group activity or spending hours praying is not. At least not when we're together.

Yeah, I think this is a big thing. If I was involved in some activity that took up a large chunk of time, then I would understand if my g/f got upset and wanted to spend some of that time with me. Does your g/f understand how you feel about it?

At least your g/f is willing to compromise. If she can balance church with spending time with you, then it seems like your relationship could be taking a step in the right direction. If she's willing to compromise about this, then it could be in her nature to be willing to make compromises about other issues as well so that you can build a good relationship with her.

Quote:

When I sort of brought this issue up a few weeks ago she actually said that a non religious person wouldn't be able to love me as much as she did! Oh, the irony of it ... with a non religious person I wouldn't feel like I was competing with a superhuman non existent entity.

Hmm, this would worry me. I usually question the motives of people who question my love of things. It is a bit pretentious to think that one can know the degree of love another person is capable of. If she is capable of a greater capacity of love than you, then what else is she more capable of? Is she more capable of morality because she has God on her side? Should she be allowed to make the moral decisions because of this? It just worries me when other people claim to know what your feelings and thoughts are.

I hope all works well with you. If she is willing to talk with you and make some compromises, then that is a good sign.

dimpledop, thanks for the advice! I think it's really a lost cause with my g/f. She's not willing to make compromises in the first place, so whether or not she sticks to them is another issue entirely. My relationship is a dead-end, and both of us admitted that. However, we didn't want to break up just yet so we are giving the relationship a little time so we can be sure that we are doing the right thing. Anyway, I don't want to derail barcode's thread too much. PM me if you want to discuss this some more.

-Nick

Barcode · 07-15-2003, 06:34 AM

Hey there,

Quote:

I was involved in some activity that took up a large chunk of time, then I would understand if my g/f got upset and wanted to spend some of that time with me. Does your g/f understand how you feel about it?

Yes, and no. I think we've pretty much got this covered with her compromising while I stay with her. In my case it's not the activities that are the problem; it's this (in my opinion - downright ridiculous) belief that you should love God above everything else and have that take precedence over a real, human relationship.

I've kept quiet the last few days; I suspect if I mention it, it'll just lead to an argument and more unpleasantness - which probably isn't the best way to go. *sighs*

I know it's not right to demand anything; but in my case, I need to be first in my partners life. All I can do is wait and see how the extended time together over the summer pans out ... no point in being defeatist now ... but it *is* difficult when it feels like there's an invisible entity also involved in your relationship, when it should just be you and your partner.
:banghead:

Bree · 07-15-2003, 07:06 AM

I admire those who say they put God first, in their lives, above all things. I think that kind of faith, demonstrated, is very admirable, no matter how misguided I think their efforts are.

That being said, I personally could not date someone who professes to put God first, over everything else that matters - because this means that someday God might replace me, and being somewhat of a jealous bitch I couldn't bear to see that happening.

Barcode · 07-15-2003, 07:25 AM

^ Yup. I think it's admirable if they feel it's making them a better person; it's just not something I'm able to stomach when it comes to a personal involvement with another.

My girlfriend has already told me her first committment is to me, so maybe I'm being unduly harsh on her. What worries me is that she says she wants to increase her faith .... if this means being more involved in the Church, or praying more or whatever, then I just don't see us going the distance since I already feel pushed to my limits with this.

I don't know, I just have the sinking feeling that this will eventually cause me to walk away because of the feeling God is more important. We'll see.

The ironic thing is if I was to put any of my other relationships above the one I have with her, I probably wouldn't hear the end of it ... yet it's ok to do this when it comes to " God " .... grrrrrr.

Just venting ....

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07-09-2003, 12:30 PM	#11
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	Hummmm. I don't understand the response I got to my message, or maybe I'm being deliberately obtuse. " You come first in my life. But God also comes, or should come, first. On different existences. " Why do I have a feeling this is the beginning of the end .... goodness, maybe I need to borrow some of her good ole Christian morals and stop being so selfish. No, I'm not considering making any sort of proper committment to my girlfriend. What I'm discovering is that it's not so much the belief ... but more of an incompatibility in the way of thinking. It's frustrating to see someone accept things without asking questions, or assuming some things are right because it's what they have always been taught. But I guess this mode of thinking is especially prevalent amongst devout religious types. Gawd, I need to find myself an atheist girlfriend ... less complications that way!

07-09-2003, 06:22 PM	#12
dimpledop Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, ON CANADA Posts: 250	Barcode - and - I ate Pascal's Wafer: You need to discuss the issue of theism (and it is an issue) before going any further. If her behaviour is bothering you and you don't deal with it openly and constructively, then it simply cannot get any better. For example, just how swimmingly do you think things would go with regards to raising children? To be blunt and perhaps a bit harsh, get it straightened out now, or just get out. It's not up to you alone to accommodate her views, and the behaviours associated with those views. She has to accommodate your views, too. And "accommodate" does not include the occasional snide remark that belittles your non-theism, unless of course she has no problem hearing a snide remark from you about her theism. Fair is fair. That said, who wants to constantly be on guard to defend oneself from subtle but very real jabs against his (or her) identity? And whatever you do, do not try to understand the gobbledygook about a relationship with God being on another plateau... Of course such comments don't make sense if you don't believe in a god. Try and be tolerant and understanding of her needs, but not of a relationship that doesn't actually exist. As I ate Pascal's Wafer wrote, "It is wrong to put an invisible friend above your partner if the partner is not comfortable with it." And it is pretty hard to be comfortable coming in second place to an invisible friend. Barcode: While it's important to say that she loves you every now and again, it wasn't necessary for her to say that a non-religious person couldn't love you as much as she does. That strikes me as just a tad self-righteous. And to flip things around, since you are a "non-religious" person, how does she feel about how much you love her? Does she think you can't love her quite as much as a religious person could? Flipping things around again, what if you told her that a religious person couldn't love her as much as you love her? How would that make her feel? Think about your answer... So then why is it okay for her to make such a remark? Trying to sort things out, without compromising your worldview, does not make you selfish. Please do not suggest that christians are, by virtue of their religion, less selfish. There are plenty of non-christians who are not selfish and plenty of christians who are. I Ate Pascal's Wafer: Interesting that your girlfriend got more serious about her theism not too long after you deconverted. Do you think her prioritizing would be any different if you weren't in a long-distance relationship? You mentioned that in an atheist/theist relationship the two parties need to come to an agreement. I would add that they both need to keep to that agreement. But people change over time, and sometimes even with an agreement, things don't work out because one person no longer feels he or she can live with that agreement. Some of the compromises may become too unpalatable to handle. I hope the both of you find the best way to deal with your respective situations. They sound so similar it's easy to get the two of you mixed up in this thread. Be honest and respectful to yourselves and to your girlfriends and you will figure out the best solution. Good luck to both of you.

07-10-2003, 10:58 PM	#14
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	^ Oh sorry, the different existences remark was a comment my girlfriend made. I think it makes sense. She thinks god is love, so the feelings she has for me are partly to do with that. She can't seperate the two things, so I'm told. It's taking some mental gymnastics on my part to understand it all I guess the main thing I need to be concerned with is that she obviously loves me, and she thinks God is helping her with that. That I can live with. Placing (what I consider to be) a mythical entity above me I can't; but she said last night the most meaningful relationship is the one with me, with another person. So maybe we're beginning to make some progress ... I see things as either/or situations and to her it's all part of the same thing. Best thing I can do is stop stressing and go along with the flow ... over analyzing this will do me no good anymore. I do appreciate your words soluble_fish

07-10-2003, 11:22 PM	#15
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	I'm in a atheist/catholic relationship and I must say I never feel that way at all. In fact for the most part God/religion never enters the picture. So I guess I'm lucky. Every so often I get optimistic and think she'll deconvert. -B

07-15-2003, 07:06 AM	#19
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	I admire those who say they put God first, in their lives, above all things. I think that kind of faith, demonstrated, is very admirable, no matter how misguided I think their efforts are. That being said, I personally could not date someone who professes to put God first, over everything else that matters - because this means that someday God might replace me, and being somewhat of a jealous bitch I couldn't bear to see that happening.

07-15-2003, 07:25 AM	#20
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	^ Yup. I think it's admirable if they feel it's making them a better person; it's just not something I'm able to stomach when it comes to a personal involvement with another. My girlfriend has already told me her first committment is to me, so maybe I'm being unduly harsh on her. What worries me is that she says she wants to increase her faith .... if this means being more involved in the Church, or praying more or whatever, then I just don't see us going the distance since I already feel pushed to my limits with this. I don't know, I just have the sinking feeling that this will eventually cause me to walk away because of the feeling God is more important. We'll see. The ironic thing is if I was to put any of my other relationships above the one I have with her, I probably wouldn't hear the end of it ... yet it's ok to do this when it comes to " God " .... grrrrrr. Just venting ....

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