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Old 04-02-2002, 07:15 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skeptical:
<strong>

I must be dense because I simply do not understand why you keep repeating a question which is irrelevant. Let me try again.

The question, quite simply, is not what "position" someone is in with regard to knowledge, its what did they _believe_. Your argument seems to boil down to:

1) The apostles knew Jesus
2) The apostles would have known if he was divine or not
3) The apostles would not have died for their beliefs if they didn't believe Jesus was divine
4) The apostles _did_ die for their beliefs, therefore Jesus must have been divine

The problem is that even granting a great amount of latitude in allowing you to make claims that the NT stories are reasonably accurate, number 2 simply does not follow. Perhaps Jesus could perform miracles, but he wasn't divine. Perhaps people in the 1st century lived in a world of credulity very different from our own where everything worked by magic and events that were very normal were interpreted as being supernatural. (again, I refer you to the example of the Witch Hunts, which only occured for the most part 400 years ago or less, nothing close to the 2,000 for the NT)

Let me restate the above differently:

1) The apostles knew Jesus
2) The apostles believed he was divine
3) The apostles would not have died for their beliefs if they didn't believe Jesus was divine
4) The apostles _did_ die for their beliefs, therefore they must have believed he was divine

Notice that 4 is just a restatement of 2. All that can be deduced from this is that the apostles _believed_ Jesus was divine. "Witnesses" at witch trials in the 16th century believed they had seen people flying on brooms and fornicating with the devil. Does this make it real because they believed it? History has shown very strongly that belief is a poor judge for the veracity of a claim EVEN FOR PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF AN EVENT. This is especially true the more credulous the people and the more supernatural the event or events in question.

Your argument is not evidence for veracity, it is evidence of belief. One can deduce little of the former from the latter.

If your argument is those closest to the events believed strongly they were true, I would even grant that proposition, but I fail to see how that is relevant to determining veracity. There are simply too many cases of supernatural claims of witnesses which turned out not to be accurate to accept any such claims at face value without at least _some_ sort of corraborating evidence.

Belief is not evidence of fact, it is evidence of belief.

Incidentally, I'm still waiting for an answer on why modern Christians cannot raise the dead if Jesus' followers in the NT can do it.</strong>
Meta =&gt; Well why did they believe it? They must have had a reason. After all, they lived in a culture where they would lose everything for blaspheming, and to say that an ordinary man was divine was just that to the people of their culture. So why would they do that if they had not seen something that really convenced them?

Now you might argue well they could see miracles and be convenced themselves but that doesn't prove. Well it may not prove it in an absolute sense, but nothing can be proven in an aboslute sense except language games with no real referent to the real world. For the real world we have to make judgements. But if someone has a great moral character, works miracles, rises from the dead and has a booming voice form heven saying "this is my beleoved son" then I say that's reasonable evidence and one can make a reasonable assertion that he's divine.

If an assertion is reasonsable it's not stupid or illogical or unfounded. it may not be totally proven but it's reasonable. That's good enough to avoid embarrassment.

Now why don't modern Christains raise form the dead? Well they do! that's just ciruclar reasoning. they do. I've met four of them.
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Old 04-02-2002, 07:20 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by not a theist:
<strong>

I often see such assertions repeated as if we could be sure that all of the apostles actually died for their beliefs. There are a number of problems with it however.
1. For the most part, we have no good evidence that most actually did die for their beliefs. Most of the accounts are late and unreliable. If you care to offer the accounts, I will demonstrate why that is. At most, of the eyewitnesses, we can only be fairly confident that Peter and the Jameses and perhaps John were martyred. Even in these cases, the evidence is not great.
2. Those who were killed such as James may not have had any chance to recant. Once the ball was rolling, they may have had no way out. You seem to assume a scenario where they had the chance to recant. This is reading the situation of the later persecutions into the earlier ones. I think that this is highly doubtful in the majority of the early, eyewitness cases. In any case, you would have to demonstrate that they would have had the chance to recant once they were taken for execution.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: not a theist ]</strong>
Meta =&gt;I don't think we have to prove that most did. Just a couple would be enough because who would do that knowing its a lie? We know that Peter did because Clement of Rome knew him and knew other witnesses who saw his death and writes about it in 1 Clement. WE know that Polycarp knew eyewitnesses and people who knew the Apostles. We also know that Papias knew eye witnesses. The four Daughters of Philip of Hirapalas compiled a compendium of the history of the first century church, much of which they witnessesed themselves.

And there is the community itself, the first century chruch. WE don't know their names indivudally, but they believed the message. Why did they do that? It would have been blasphemy, they had to go against their families and friends and everything they knew. Why would they do that? The 500 of which Paul speaks would have been included in this, people knew about them, Paul heard about them. They were known to the early chruch.
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Old 04-02-2002, 07:30 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sojourner553:
<strong>________________________________________
Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:

The question is are you aware of any other example where people who were in a postition to KNOW that it was a lie and died for it anyways.
___________________________________________

Of course they believed it

So did the apostles (or equivalents) of Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and the Reverend Moon...</strong>
Meta =&gt; Did J. Smith? That's debatable. I think he believed in his hoax. Mohammed believed? How do you know that? He didn't die for it. Reverend Moon obviously doens't believe in anything but facism and selling flowers. None of the Apostles got rich off of their beliefs, all the men you mention did get earthly power out of theirs, not so with the Apostles.


Quote:
Does that make their doctrines true? You need to be consistent you realize.

Meta=&gt;Believing it doesnt' make it true, the reason they had for believing it might make it true. You need to be consistant you realize.

Quote:
Actually the evidence points to the followers of Jesus believeing in a Jewish version of a messiah -- similar to a king David, where God grants supernatural powers -- sort of like a superman.

Meta =&gt;How do you figure that? The earilest written documents we have attest to a divine Messiah. So where do you get the idea they didn't believe in one? BTW the Jews did believe in a divine Messiah, or quasi divine. See Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Ederhseim, also see 1 Baruch and Cyboline Oracles and other apocryful sources.

Quote:
The trinity, spirits, heaven in a sky after birth,virgin birth, resurrections -- these are all from EARLIER Greek religions -- the mystery religions.

Meta =&gt;No they are not! If you read the actual material instead of Christ myther websites you see that they didn't have any actual resurrections in any of the myths except Dionysius and that was related to crop cycles. Heaven is never said to be in the sky. All religions had spirits, that is so general you can't argue copying. The OT certainly has them. None of the have a real Trinity either, but so what if they did? That was just a standard way to concieve God. You might as well say that having a god at all is a copy. that would be absurd. Here are my myth pages where all of this is debuncked, please read.


<a href="http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/Mythological_Jesus.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/Mythological_Jesus.htm</a>


The Greeks re-interpreted the events years after Jesus died. Proof?

*Why is James the brother of Jesus mostly expunged from the New Testament? Theologians hate the book of James because it attributes no supernatural powers to Jesus.

Why did Jesus' family nor anyone from his home town not believed in his powers.

See site for citations:
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/JERCHRIS.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/JERCHRIS.TXT</a>

or
Section I Chapter 6 from:
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

====================

Your argument sounds like Josh McDowell's Trilemma. See the refutation for this in

(half way down the page)
<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/RESPONSE.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/RESPONSE.TXT</a>

Sojourner

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ][/QB][/QUOTE]
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Old 04-02-2002, 07:35 PM   #154
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[quote]Originally posted by Metacrock:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Sojourner553:
________________________________________
Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:
The question is are you aware of any other example where people who were in a postition to KNOW that it was a lie and died for it anyways.
___________________________________________

Of course they believed it

So did the apostles (or equivalents) of Mohammed, Joseph Smith, and the Reverend Moon...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meta =&gt; Did J. Smith? That's debatable. I think he believed in his hoax. Mohammed believed? How do you know that? He didn't die for it. Reverend Moon obviously doens't believe in anything but facism and selling flowers. None of the Apostles got rich off of their beliefs, all the men you mention did get earthly power out of theirs, not so with the Apostles.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does that make their doctrines true? You need to be consistent you realize.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Meta=&gt;Believing it doesnt' make it true, the reason they had for believing it might make it true. You need to be consistant you realize.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually the evidence points to the followers of Jesus believeing in a Jewish version of a messiah -- similar to a king David, where God grants supernatural powers -- sort of like a superman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Meta =&gt;How do you figure that? The earilest written documents we have attest to a divine Messiah. So where do you get the idea they didn't believe in one? BTW the Jews did believe in a divine Messiah, or quasi divine. See Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Ederhseim, also see 1 Baruch and Cyboline Oracles and other apocryful sources.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The trinity, spirits, heaven in a sky after birth,virgin birth, resurrections -- these are all from EARLIER Greek religions -- the mystery religions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Meta =&gt;No they are not! If you read the actual material instead of Christ myther websites you see that they didn't have any actual resurrections in any of the myths except Dionysius and that was related to crop cycles. Heaven is never said to be in the sky. All religions had spirits, that is so general you can't argue copying. The OT certainly has them. None of the have a real Trinity either, but so what if they did? That was just a standard way to concieve God. You might as well say that having a god at all is a copy. that would be absurd. Here are my myth pages where all of this is debuncked, please read.


<a href="http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/Mythological_Jesus.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/meta_crock/other/Mythological_Jesus.htm</a>


Quote:
The Greeks re-interpreted the events years after Jesus died. Proof?
Meta =&gt;Not my argument.

Quote:
*Why is James the brother of Jesus mostly expunged from the New Testament? Theologians hate the book of James because it attributes no supernatural powers to Jesus.

Why did Jesus' family nor anyone from his home town not believed in his powers.

Meta=&gt;the book of James is a letter. It does not concern itself with the Gospel story anyway. This is merely argument from silence. But you know, since he didn't begin his ministry at home, so maybe they never saw his miracles.


Quote:
Your argument sounds like Josh McDowell's Trilemma.

Meta =&gt; Even a blind dog finds a bone.
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Old 04-02-2002, 09:28 PM   #155
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Hi Meta,

Quote:
Now why don't modern Christains raise form the dead? Well they do! that's just ciruclar reasoning. they do. I've met four of them.
Um, huh? What's this about? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Old 04-03-2002, 06:28 AM   #156
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Hi Meta,
Just like Jesus came to save the world from Gods wrath, you have come to save Atticus_Finch. Xcept of course, you are real and your body is here with us.
Quote:
Well why did they believe it? They must have had a reason. After all, they lived in a culture where they would lose everything for blaspheming, and to say that an ordinary man was divine was just that to the people of their culture. So why would they do that if they had not seen something that really convenced them?
According to the myth, Peter denied him 3 times, Judas betrayed him, Thomas doubted him and the rest "disapeared". Only the dying thief conceded that Jesus was truly the son of God. I believe when the moment of reckoning came, they fled.
Not a great sign of their belief. Maybe the myth just misled us into believeing Jesus never gave the so-called disciples material things(maybe changing five pieces of bread and some fish to huge large amounts was the main attraction?). How come he carried his cross alone?
From the kind of abandonment and betrayal they subjected Jesus to, I do not think they really believed in him. If they did, they found no reason to think they could die by his side or die with him.
Either way, a stranger finding Jesus alone on the cross (before his body was stolen) would have been pretty hard to convince that he was someone with disciples ready to die for their belief in him and his heavenly kingdom.
Or is it also blasphemous to come to the defence of your lord?
Quote:
Now why don't modern Christains raise form the dead? Well they do! that's just ciruclar reasoning. they do. I've met four of them.
Show me a christian who can heal and I will show you a hospital full of sick people.
Reality dispels all myths.
Quote:
And there is the community itself, the first century chruch. WE don't know their names indivudally, but they believed the message. Why did they do that? It would have been blasphemy, they had to go against their families and friends and everything they knew. Why would they do that? The 500 of which Paul speaks would have been included in this, people knew about them, Paul heard about them. They were known to the early chruch.
You need to tell us what you mean by blasphemy you use it very outlandishly.
This argument about the threat of blaspheming is completely void because the disciples Did not go around preaching that Jesus is God: They said Jesus was the Son of God. Like Hercules, Like many roman Gods, Jesus was just another son of a God. That was not offensive to the Roman authorities especially considering that he was just one of the three gods in one: The concept of trinity fit well right into the woodwork: It did not challenge the existing concepts of polytheistic gods that the Romans ascribed to.
That, my friend is why the threat of blasphemy never existed.
At the time Jesus was saying "Before Abraham was, I am" (the statement that is believed to have sealed his fate), the concept of him being the son of God had not taken hold as such - he was still considered "the messiah". After he died, thats when he was elevated to the God-status - by Paul etc, but they decided he would be one among the three parts of god.
Of course, three gods in one are still three gods. Thus the romans sat back and relaxed.
Quote:
None of the Apostles got rich off of their beliefs, all the men you mention did get earthly power out of theirs, not so with the Apostles.
You don't know this. The bible does not address the status of their wealth.
In any case, there is power in walking around with someone who changes water into wine and tells you to cast your nets into the sea only to catch more fish than you can handle. You dont have to believe in a magician to be his friend, or even to kiss his ass. One day, he could raise your sister from the dead. My point is, they had a lot to gain by being close to Jesus, leave alone the entertainment aspect of seeing the blind see and the cripple walk. That is why most leaders have sychophants - power - attention - recognition - security. At least the Apostles never went hungry with Jesus around and they never fell sick (leprosy was famous those days). What more do you think they wanted - Cadillacs?
Besides, he promised them heaven - is there anything greater? (especially during those credulous days?).
So your point about material wealth acquisition fails.
Quote:
Believing it doesnt' make it true, the reason they had for believing it might make it true.
Magicians are believed to be powerful by most people. The reason for believing is that they do "impossible" things.
Well, what they do is not impossible. Even though the reason for believing it (seeing the magician at work) is reasonable.
so this point fails too.
People believe wrong things for good reasons all the time.
Remember the flat-earthers?
Quote:
Heaven is never said to be in the sky
It is said that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth - "the heavens" is the sky. Not IN the sky, unless you elaborate.
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Old 04-03-2002, 07:56 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by cricket:
<strong>Hi Meta,

"Now why don't modern Christains raise form the dead? Well they do! that's just ciruclar reasoning. they do. I've met four of them."

Um, huh? What's this about? </strong>
Yeah yeah, he's talking about his 4 friends. As the bible tells us, he who is in christ is alive and he who is not in christ is dead [more appeals to emotion]. So meta has 4 friend that became christians.....whoooppeee.

Like Atticus_finch and any christian unwilling to admit that what he believes is most likely a hoax, he still dodges the tough questions.

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>
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Old 04-03-2002, 01:32 PM   #158
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<strong>
Quote:
Well why did they believe it? They must have had a reason. After all, they lived in a culture where they would lose everything for blaspheming, and to say that an ordinary man was divine was just that to the people of their culture. So why would they do that if they had not seen something that really convenced them?</strong>
People have and continue to do all kinds of weird things I don't understand.

No too long ago 25 people were convinced they were going to obtain a new heavenly body aboard an alien spacecraft that was flying behind Hale-Bopp. They actually killed themselves because of that belief - why would they do that if they had not seen something that really convinced them?

The Aztecs practiced human sacrifice regularly:

Quote:
"The occurrence of human sacrifice appears to have been widespread and its intentions various, ranging from communion with a god and participation in his divine life to expiation and the promotion of the Earth fertility.It seems to have been adopted by agricultural rather than by hunting or pastoral peoples. Of all the worldly manifestations of the life-force,the human undoubtedly impressed men as the most valuable and thus the most potent and efficacious as an oblation. Thus, in Mexico the belief that the sun needed human nourishment led to sacrifice in which as many as 20,000victims perished annually in the Aztec and Nahua calendrical maize ritual in the 14th century AD."
ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA
1975 EDITION. VOL. 14
P-131
Talk about dedication and conviction! Certainly the Aztecs must have seen something to convince them of their Gods in order to participate in such drastic rituals. This level of dedication makes early Christians look like wimps.

In Iran, members of the Bahai faith have undergone tremendous persecution, including execution, for refusing to recant their beliefs. In 1983, 10 women and girls were imprisoned and later hanged because of their Bahai beliefs. Why would they suffer for their faith if it wasn’t true?

Members of Wicca are routinely harrassed or otherwise discriminated against in modern society. Charges of Satanism, animal sacrifice, dark magic, are common. Reluctance or even outright refusal to recognize Wicca as a religion has been common place, even in the U.S. Military. Several Senator’s, including Strom Thurman and Bob Barr have continually attempted to block the practice of Wicca on military bases. Despite these things, Wiccans continue to be convicted of their beliefs.

Despite harrassment, imprisonment, torture, labor brigades, destruction of monastaries, Tibetan Buddhists continue to adhere to their beliefs. It must be they see something that convinces them of the truth of Buddhism.

<strong>
Quote:
For the real world we have to make judgements. But if someone has a great moral character, works miracles, rises from the dead and has a booming voice form heven saying "this is my beleoved son" then I say that's reasonable evidence and one can make a reasonable assertion that he's divine.
</strong>
If, if, if, and if. Hey, that’s only 4 ifs, not too bad. Course they’re prettty big IF’s. I could also make a “reasonable” assertion he was an alien from the planet Vega who thought it was in our best interest at the time to view him as divine.

<strong>
Quote:
If an assertion is reasonsable it's not stupid or illogical or unfounded. it may not be totally proven but it's reasonable. That's good enough to avoid embarrassment. </strong>
Given the failure of supernaturalism to ever actually explain anything, I think it’s a very unwarranted conclusion, but you may be right about the embarrassment thing I dunno.

<strong>
Quote:
Now why don't modern Christains raise form the dead? Well they do! that's just ciruclar reasoning. they do. I've met four of them.
</strong>
Ah, equivocation on what it means to be “dead” no doubt. That’s okay I guess. Assertions are allowed, they’re just not very convincing.
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Old 04-03-2002, 02:53 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Metacrock:
<strong>

Meta =&gt; Well why did they believe it? They must have had a reason. After all, they lived in a culture where they would lose everything for blaspheming, and to say that an ordinary man was divine was just that to the people of their culture. So why would they do that if they had not seen something that really convenced them?

Now you might argue well they could see miracles and be convenced themselves but that doesn't prove. Well it may not prove it in an absolute sense, but nothing can be proven in an aboslute sense except language games with no real referent to the real world. For the real world we have to make judgements. But if someone has a great moral character, works miracles, rises from the dead and has a booming voice form heven saying "this is my beleoved son" then I say that's reasonable evidence and one can make a reasonable assertion that he's divine.

If an assertion is reasonsable it's not stupid or illogical or unfounded. it may not be totally proven but it's reasonable. That's good enough to avoid embarrassment.

Now why don't modern Christains raise form the dead? Well they do! that's just ciruclar reasoning. they do. I've met four of them.</strong>
I would agree that IF Jesus' followers saw things they believed to be miraculous, then it would be reasonable FOR THEM to believe (especially given the environment of magic in which they lived). Unfortunately, there is no reason for a _modern_ person to believe simply because Jesus' followers believed. (as I said, belief is not evidence of fact, it is evidence of belief)

As far as I am concerned, whether or not Jesus' followers thought he was divine is completely irrelevant. The question is why should a modern person believe it? As I have said again and again, people who lived in the first century lived in a world where everything was magical. We do not live in that world.

People in the Bible literally hear the voice of God. The sun stops in the sky. Trumpets blow and the walls of cities fall. People are taken up into whirlwinds. People turn to salt. The dead jump from their graves.

None of this, nothing close to this, is seen in the modern world. Why? Did God suddenly become shy once society reached the point where we could actually record and measure supposed events of this nature? Don't you think its a little odd that we don't see any of these things but they apparently happened all the time in the OT and NT?

Simply relying on testimony from extraordinarily credulous persons living in a time of ubiqitous magic, even if it could be shown that they were witnesses, is irrational for any modern person. (in any case, only a very small number of biblical scholars believe that any of the NT gospels were written prior to 70 CE)

Now, stop being coy and avoiding the question I asked about raising of the dead. If your going to answer a question, answer the question as asked and not as you want it asked. Jesus and his followers in the NT physically raised people from the dead. I can see no logical nor biblical reason to indicate why the followers of Jesus' followers would not be able to raise the dead as well. Given this, it would follow that modern "true believers" should be able to raise the dead. (after all, its just a matter of faith right?)

Provide me with one single well-documented case of any modern (last 100 years) Christian doing this. Don't pretend not to understand me or talk metaphorically. Answer the question with something other than deflection or an excuse.
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Old 04-03-2002, 02:54 PM   #160
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Maybe in a kind of strange twisted kind of way those followers of Heaven's Gate believed they were entering a kind of life boat that will take them off to the mother ship and they believed the Earth ship was "sinking", just like those passengers of the Titanic who believe their only hope for survival/salvation was to get into one of those life boats. There were of course many passengers who were very skeptical of the prospect of the titanic sinking and staying on it was by far the safer option than taking your chances on a little boat in the icy Atlantic.
I know a way that you can brainwash some one enough to believing that Earth is facing imminent doom like the Titanic and their only hope was to jump into a crater of an active volcano.
Show them some pictures of Earth and accompany those pictures with the sounds of screeches and other deafening noises like showing a little kid a fluffy white rabbit and hitting a loud gong to make him the hate it. Then show them movies with the sound track of very nice music of people jumping into volcanos and before they hit the lave they sprout angels
wings and fly off to the magic land . repeat this pattern for weeks
Soon after been isolated from the outside many people with believe that the Earth is a very unsafe place and will end up jumping into volcanos.
Of course if we ever see some real CNN news footage of people holding hands on the rim of the volcano and jumping in. I would think to myself "I wouldn't do anything so stupid", but my brain has the same plasticity as theirs' and it is only as good as the information that goes into it, and if it is erroneous junk information that goes into it then I will behave with the dictates of my brain's junk processing. The same is true with the followers of Heaven's Gate or any other junk belief system like theism.

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