Philosoft

I don't see what any of this has to do with our allegedly sinful natures.

<strong> This sentence seems self-contradictor. Are our natures simply the set of all behaviors we are capable of, from which we are free to choose what we do at any time? This does not reconcile with common notions like 'good-natured.' I think you have some explaining to do.

<strong> If the gift-giver knew in advance exactly how it would be used? Absolutely.

<strong> I'm not quite sure what to make of this example.

<strong> Actually, what I know is that some people do things that make other people rather angry and upset. I've never seen this thing 'evil.'

<strong> The right honorable Mr. Snedden has saved me the trouble, thank Jebus.

[ July 01, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

excreationist

The thread's title:
"worship me while I beat you"

My suggestion:
If you disobey any of my orders, even in ignorance, you will suffer - (now and for eternity)... but if you acknowledge your complete inferiority then I will eventually end your suffering so that you can worship and serve me forever...

It's a bit long for a thread title though.

excreationist

About evil:
Evil is like sin except worse I think. Sin is when you disobey the orders of the Supreme being. So if your opinions differ, it is the human/angel that is sinning, not God, since his opinions are 100% perfect. Also, if you disobey God through ignorance, that is sin too I think.
Evil and wickedness would involve indulging in sin. Sins usually hurt other humans although they ultimately are just about disobeying God's will. By definition God can't go against his will - he is always doing what he wants at the time. He can create other people who are capable of disobeying him though. (e.g. they might do some work on the Sabbath or worship the wrong god, etc)

A3

Hi Bill
Originally posted by A3:
You know evil exists, (just read the papers) but God did not create evil, humans did. So....
I'd really like to see you try to defend the notion that God is responsible for our sinful natures.

P1) God created all that exists (except Himself, of course)
P2) Evil exists
C1) God created evil

Let’s start with what our understanding is of what good and evil are. They don’t stand side by side but are opposites.
Good exists from creation, in the highest degree and in the least degree; and when this least good reduces to nothing, evil arises on the other side. Therefore there is no proportional relationship or progression of good to evil, but a proportional relationship and progression of good to a greater or lesser good, and of evil to a greater or lesser evil; for good and evil are opposites in every single respect.
Because good and evil are opposites, there is a middle ground, and in it an area of equilibrium or balance, in which evil acts against good. But because evil does not prevail, it remains in the endeavor. Every person grows up in this equilibrium; and being an equilibrium between good and evil, or to say the same thing, between heaven and hell, it is a spiritual equilibrium, which produces a state of freedom in those who live in it. The Lord attracts all people out of this equilibrium to Him, and the person who follows in freedom is led by Him out of evil into good, and thus into heaven.
The next question of course is "How could evil come into existence when nothing but good existed from creation?
This can be understood if it is realized that no one is good but God alone, and that nothing is good that is good in itself unless it is from God. Consequently it is the person who looks to God and wills to be led by God who is motivated by good. But the person who turns away from God and wills to be led by himself is not motivated by good; for the good that he does is either for the sake of himself or for the sake of the world; thus it is either merit-seeking, or feigned, or deceptive. From this it is apparent that man himself is the origin of evil - not that that origin was infused into man from creation, but that by turning from God to self he infused it into himself.

"But how could man turn away from God and turn to himself, when a person cannot will anything, think anything, and so do anything except from God. Why did God permit it?"
We have been so created that everything we will, think and do appears to us as being in us and thus from us. Without this appearance a person would not be a human being, for he would be unable to receive anything of good and truth or of love and wisdom, retain it, and seemingly adopt it as his own. Consequently it follows that without this, as it were, living appearance, we would not have any conjunction with God, and so neither any eternal life. But if as a result of this appearance we persuade ourself to the belief that we will, think, and thus do good all by and from ourself, and not from the Lord (even though it appears to be so), we turn good into evil in us, and so create in ourselves the origin of evil. This is the essence of the parable of Adam and Eve.

To Philosoft
Ok, just the first part “What makes you think we are not [sinful by nature]? What do you think will happen if there is no police? What if a country has no military anymore? What if all security personnel of any given company stayed home? What if we new we could get away with murder?

The ‘natures’ I was here referring to are our human faculties of freedom and rationality. The human natures that set us appart from the animals. We have been created people not puppets.

I’ll rephrase it, if I flew into a building claiming Allah wanted me to do it, would that make Allah responsible?
And don’t come back with this “If Allah knew this was going to happen He was responsible” nonsense. We are all responsible human beings with the freedom to do good or screw-up. Everything we do shapes us into the life form we are and are ultimately happy with. Without our God-given freedom this would be impossible. Because of this freedom God will accept anyone who honestly thinks he or she is doing the right thing.
There has been no bigger stick than the literal interpretation of Scriptures.

Regards
Adriaan

TooBad

What you seem to be saying is: God created all the conditions of which evil and suffering could be reasonably described as an inevitable outcome, but can in no way be held responsible for any evil or suffering which may in fact occur as a result of said conditions.

This line of blatant doublethink crops up so frequently in religious argument that I think it deserves a name of its own.

Perhaps it would be facetious of me to propose that it should henceforth be referred to as the "Kissinger Shuffle".

On second thoughts, perhaps it wouldn't.

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: TooBad ]

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: TooBad ]</p>

lpetrich

An omnipotent being would be responsible for everything that happens, by virtue of its omnipotence. And would be responsible by omission as well as by commission.

Imagine Blu or A3 or some other such apologist hitting someone as they drive, and then offering the defense that they had not doing anything.

They'd quickly be found guilty of criminal negligence in the form of not steering their cars away from their victims and/or slamming on the brakes.

And their defense would get tossed out as irrelevant.

Blu

If you will read what I wrote, you will find that I made it very clear that I thought every human being is responsible for their actions. God is not responsible, non-physical beings are not responsible, the anquish of our childhoods are not responsible, our mental illnesses aren't responsible, and the tool in which we commit crime are also not responsible.

What you said about this supposed premise of hitting someone with a car, is not even valid. It would be however if I had claimed that human beings are not responsible for what they do. Read before you write.

Thanks

Blu

Apologist - a person who defends or justifies something, such as a doctrine, a policy, or an institution.

I don't catagorize myself as an "apologist". I have thoughts and I have beliefs this doesn't make me an "apologist."

If you are an "apologist" just because you have thoughts and beliefs, whether it is in atheism or science etc., then everyone on earth would be an "apologist." People who defend anything including atheism and the innocent, would also be considered "apologists."

Do not refer to me as something I am not.

Thanks

A3

TooBad

Originally posted by A3:
"But how could man turn away from God and turn to himself, when a person cannot will anything, think anything, and so do anything except from God. Why did God permit it?"
We have been so created that everything we will, think and do appears to us as being in us and thus from us.

Is this how you live? Do you feel you have to do evil things? Is it inevitable that at some point you will lie or steal or commit fraud. It is only a matter of time and you’ll be robbing a bank?
God is Love, He created us in an image and likeness of Him. This makes us forms of love as well. But we don’t have to, we can chose not to love and even turn it around to hate. Did God create hate? No, we did. Hate was not created and is nothing in itself, it is the absence of love. Darkness was not created, it is nothing in itself, it is the absence of light. Same with cold, same with ignorance.

This kind of scenario does not hold up in any Western Court of law. Is Ford responsible if you willfully kill someone with their cars? Is Winchester responsible if you kill someone willfully with their guns? Can you love your marriage partner, but when that turns to hate it all of a sudden is God’s fault?

lpetrich
You seem to be arguing simultaneously in opposite directions, either God is responsible or we are, what will it be? If God is responsible doesn’t that make you a mindless puppet?
Regards
Adriaan

Van Agon

Hi Sid,

In a post dated July 01, 2002 09:43 AM,

[You said:]
"The way I see it is like a child loving an abusive parent"

The way I see it, it is like a child who abandon's his Father, spends all of his wealth, and chooses to eat with the pigs.

<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+15%3A11-32&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x =16&optional.y=4" target="_blank">http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+15%3A11-32&search=&version=NIV&language=english&optional.x =16&optional.y=4</a>

Blessings, -Van

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Van Agon ]</p>