Amen-Moses

I thought you were asserting that the primary purpose of the sex organs was procreation, I gave you an example of the male organ which is rarely used for procreation when compared with the number of times it get's used for pleasure, then I give you an example of an organ that has ONLY one use, i.e the only thing the clitoris does is provide pleasure, it plays no part in procreation whatsoever (witness the huge birth rate in Africa amongst clitoris-less populations).

Maybe in men an argument could be made that the primary purpose of the penis is other than pleasure but I'd like to see a similar argument for the clitoris!

Amen-Moses

Amos

The topic was about the sanctity of sex and I am just pointing at the reasons for it. Infertility is nothing new and is potentially a problem in all human civilizations which in turn is why some form of censorship exists in all civilizations.

The problem we face today, as I see it, is the sexual liberty enjoyed by the masses. Whereas before only small portion of the social elect were troubled with infertility we now find that a significant part of the masses are. Before it allowed for a turn over of the rich while now it paves the way for a turn over of a major part of a civilization (the educated masses).

I have no problem stating my case but will not look for scientific evidence.

Amen-Moses

Maybe not but however many times I read it I still can't make head or tail of it!

Amen-Moses

Amos

The clitoris is like the nipples on males and is not needed for females to procreate.

The reason why females have a clitoris is the same as why males have ovaries. Our sex is formed after our gender image is created and can become either male or female and so all organs must exist if the embryo can become either male or female.

Amen-Moses

Actually let me add some substance cos I think I know what you are getting at.

The Testes are indeed the male equivelent of the Ovaries and the head of the penis is the male equivelent of the clitoris, therefore the penis gives pleasure BECAUSE the clitoris does.

No why does the clitoris give pleasure if as is being insinuated here it is not needed for procreation.

Amen-Moses

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Amen-Moses ]</p>

luvluv

Amen-Moses

Of course you could just as easily argue it the other way around and say the clitoris gives pleasure because the penis does.

The clitoris is somewhat of a developmental shoot-off of the entire system of human sexuality. Like you were saying, it's a "growth" (I know this is crude) that starts off as a kind of developmental neutral player until the gender of the fetus is determined. I'm sure this will end up as somebody's signature, because it sounds so mysoginistic, but you could argue that the only reason the clitoris exists is because it could have become a penis. If the entire system of vaginal penetration by a penis was not evolved (or designed), there wouldn't be a clitoris. Now this is true even if we developmentally start off as more female than male. If we start with the idea that the clitoris is an organ designed by natue purely for pleasure it would be hard from that to explain the emergence of the penis. However, if you start from the penis being an instrument of procreation, it is easy to explain how there came to be a clitoris, and why it gives pleasure.

Amos

Because the penis does and I would never take this away from females. However, in Africa the removal of the clitoris is their form of censorship and I am not sure if we have a right to interfere with their social norm that is for the survival of their tribe. This is especially true for me since I hold that our sexual revolution -- which is caused by the removal of our censhorship-- is causing repoduction problems in our tribe. But wait, there must be better ways but it is also very ego building to see a gf go bonkers over sex.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Amen-Moses

Hold on a minute, is what is being said here is that the sex organs give pleasure as a sort of enticement to get organisms to procreate? i.e the procreative purpose is not enough for the organisms so they need an extra drive.

So from the perspective of the organism the primary object is to get as much pleasure as possible and that procreation is a side effect?

(from the perspective of an outside veiwer of course the primary purpose is indeed procreation)

Does this also mean that without the pleasure aspect we wouldn't bother to procreate?

Amen-Moses

luvluv

Probably, unless we were instinctually driven to do so. I mean, if we were non-thinking animals we could just be driven to lay eggs or to undergo cellular division or something. There are other means of procreation but sexuality is probably the most succesful.

What the entire sexual process does is promote procreation with the most favorable mate. We are attacted, as males, to women who have... um... attributes... which lead us to believe they will be able to give birth to and nurture a child. Women are attracted to men who appear to have the resources to care for that child (whether that be wide shoulders or a big fat checkbook). So the whole thing in concert, sexual organs, physical attraction linked to attributes that signify the ability to nurture young, works to promote reproduction with the most viable parents.

Almost sounds like it was designed, don't it?

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

luvluv

Well, my daddy says that's how I got here!