Godless Sodomite

Insecurity in his ability to effectively communicate? Do you actually read his posts, or do you just peck through them in search of something you find inflammatory in order to dismiss his arguments without actually addressing any of them? Koy's arguments are very clear and well-reasoned. Unlike the theists with whom he argues, Koy explains quite effectively how he reached the conclusions he's reached.

Generally, I think the problem may be that Koy tends to take people at their word. He deconstructs posts based on the information he's given. If anyone has quarrel that he goes off-track in his commentary, he'd better go back and re-read his own posts and word them more precisely if necessary. Koy isn't your psychic friend. If you expect him to debate your arguments directly, be sure you make direct arguments. Say what you mean, or this whole debating process is useless as the exchange of intelligent ideas.

-Jerry

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Reverend Godless Sodomite ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

While I wasn't going to respond to any of the other opinions since you're welcome to them (and thank you those who came to my defense), what you wrote Odemus cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged as it was previously.

What you have done is quite simply the worst possible hack bullshit.

As I explained (and others correctly pointed out to you as well), this comment from the thread you redacted:



Was from the perspective of a fundamentalist; in the manner a fanatic cult member would have responded to what you had posted (which, if memory serves, was something approaching blasphemy) and in no way was that me calling you a little maggot.

I not only clarified that several times in no uncertain terms in that thread, I apologized if you had misunderstood the literary cheat I was employing.

For you to bring that up here and not qualify any of it in this way is just unconscionable, IMO.

As for the comment about the URL hitting you in the ass, it still applies for precisely this kind of hack bullshit.

As others so kindly pointed out, the only currency that matters here is intellect, argumentation and debate, so refute the goddamned arguments or don't jump into the adult end of the pool.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

WJ

Philo/Odemus,

"Let us then talk no more about feeling, as we've here established it has no bearing on our discussion."

Philo's statement is at worse, false; at best a mystery. Otherwise, he must pove that the will's intellect takes primacy over feeling-sentient existence. Let me give you a clue, it is unknown! Why?

What follows is this, from James:

"When I call theological formulas secondary products, I mean that in a world in which no religious feeling had ever existed, I doubt whether any philosophic theology could ever have been framed. I doubt if dispassionate intellectual contemplation of the universe, apart from inner unhappiness and need of deliverance on the one hand and mystical emotion on the other, would ever have resulted in religious philosophies such as we now possess. Men would have begun with animistic explanations of natural fact, and criticised these away into scientific ones, as they actually have done."

"But even if religious philosophy had to have its first hint supplied by feeling, may it not have dealt in a superior way with the matter which feeling suggested? Feeling is private and dumb, and unable to give an account of itself. It allows that its results are mysteries and enigmas, declines to justify them rationally, and on occasion is willing that they should even pass for paradoxical and absurd. Philosophy takes just the opposite attitude. Her aspiration is to reclaim from mystery and paradox whatever territory she touches. To find an escape from obscure and wayward personal persuasion to truth objectively valid for all thinking men has ever been the intellect's most cherished ideal. To redeem religion from unwholesome privacy, and to give public status and universal right of way to its deliverances, has been reason's task. "

[end quote]

Philo, you appear to be experiencing a warm shower in the wind! No?

Odemus,

You're right! My perception has been that Koy spends too much time worring about irrelevent things when the focus should be on the essence of his very nature and his will to believe or disbelieve. For instance, the perception that 'if I write a bunch of words I'll look intellegent' may work for ignorant people...but is only a psychological thing.

Good post.

Koyaanisqatsi

Un hunh.



WJ, you could not have illustrated my point regarding the detriments of cult mentality and how it destroys otherwise normal cognitive functions and the simple application of critical analysis any better than that.

Thank you for continuing to be everyone's favorite theist poster boy!

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Now, if it's not too much trouble, could we stop with this pointless sidetrack and get back to the issues, perhaps?

Or would anyone else like to cray in the baby pool for a while longer? Anyone?

Let me know when you're done.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

WJ

How do you even know I'm a theist; you don't.



BTW, your argument about cults proves no thing(?). What's your point? Sounds like you just want to hear yourself talk; like a politician.

Writer@Large

Actually, it may have been when you stated the following ...

... in <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000450" target="_blank">this thread</a>.

--W@L

WJ

Did I go to seminary school?

Point is, I could be telling lie and you would not know it, as atheist's don't believe the theist or anyone who asserts God exists. Think: the meaning of words.

Koyaanisqatsi

Okay, little clubber.

Whatever.

And now...the Sermon on the Mount, deconstructed...

And here we go, right into the slave mentality conditioning.

Very first quote, no less! Notice how the majority of these profound pearls of wisdom are quite literally as obvious as the nose on your face and have been around in one form or another for centuries before Jesus ever allegedly walked the earth, so the question of course is, who cares that they came out of Jesus' mouth?

Only those inculcated into blieving Jesus was God and/or the first to come up with them, of course.

Really? Who would have ever thought of that before God trifurcated into flesh?

Will they, now? When? After everyone is dead? Fat lot of good that does anyone in this life, which is the only thing that matters.

Oh, right, no that's not true, because christians are indoctrinated into believing that the only thing that matters is the after life, so blessed are those that remain docile, for their docility will somehow, magically grant them the highest rewards.

Sophist nonsense that appeals only to the suffering and the desperate; a lie that will not and does not ever come true designed to (a) keep those who are already disenfranchised further disenfranchised, but worse, (b) to reinforce a complacent attitude with the promise of a reward for remaining docile.

This is identical to telling a slave in the nineteenth century that they should thank their masters for being so cruel to them, because that cruelty will serve as payment on the space shuttle to Venus.

With what? Righteousness? Is there any man who is righteous? No, not one, right?

And who, of course is doing the blessing? The unmitigated arrogance of this man; the blasphemy of it is just outrageous, yet no christian thinks for one second that it is blasphemy.

Why? Because he's God, right?

Do you see yet how the control mechanisms are in force? Again, imagine for ten seconds that this isn't Jesus, but Fred. Fred is sitting on a mountain telling you to continue to be meek because you'll win a Cadillac some day and don't be concerned that your "poor of spirit," because, contrary to everything else Judaism has ever told you, the poor of spirit will win a trip to Disneyheaven and its actually good that you're so hungry for righteousness (aka, justice against your oppressors; let's not forget who these people were and where they were living) and that the pain you are feeling because your loved ones have been murdered cruelly by the ruling elite, because you'll be comforted.

When? After you're dead.

Gee, thanks Fred. So long as just continue to be exactly as I am--ineffectual, without a voice, unjustly oppressed, impotent against authority--I'll win the whole shooting match once I'm dead and it doesn't matter?



The meek do not "inherit the earth" and those who hunger for "righteousness" must fight continuously and vigilantly to achieve and maintain it, yet here's Fred on the Mount telling you precisely the opposite; do nothing but believe in me and all of your earthly problems will magically disappear.

Do you believe Fred? Why? Because he's said some platitudes? Because he's assuming the mantle of authority? Because others in his cult have told you about all of the miraculous things he's done? Because you've seen with your own eyes how he healed a sick person?

Wasn't everybody healing sick people? Didn't Jesus' own disciples allegedly have the power to heal the sick? Wasn't the Holy Ghost already in John the Baptist? Weren't there prophets both false and true all over the place?

Again, we're not talking about a region filled with skeptics at all! We're talking about people that were already superstitious people in a very small area rife with religious cults and religious inculcation and mystics and prophets and healers and Moses coming back from the dead and angels appearing to men in the dessert, etc., etc., etc.

In other words, singing to the chorus; a chorus of largely scared, desperate and angry people who have been victimized all of their lives by one form of oppressive, ruling elite after another.

Sheep ready and wanting to be herded.

MORE:

Again, by whom? Not by the oppressors! By an imaginary creature who does not exist! By Fred standing there before you assuming the role of savior!

But how will you know all of this is true and/or the words of God? How will know that Fred has the goods?

Well, I certainly consider myself to be pure in heart! I am meek and I have mourned and I am hungry for righteousness!

So I, even with my "poor" spirit, will see God ? Just for being "pure" in heart?

Who wouldn't want to believe this is true, especially one who already believes in Yahweh in one form or another?

Even if they carry swords...? Apparently so.

Don't mind being beaten or killed or having your families tortured or murdered before your eyes because you follow our teachings about imaginary creatures, for your reward will be the gereatest of the great once you're dead!

Let them rape your daughters and disembowel your sons, because you are a member of a cult and that is more important than anything else--including your own life and the lives of your family and friends--even though it is these pointless beliefs in imaginary beings that do not and can not exist that will cause your destruction and insure that you remain in your place and never break free from your shackles, because, after all, why would you want to, when the meek shall inherit the earth?

You're right, luvluv. No control mechanisms in place here



Shall we read that one again?

Isn't that so nice of Fred/Jesus? We're blessed when everyone...wait a minute...

Why would anyone say anything "evil" against us because of you? Aren't you God or the Son of God?

Why in the world would anyone persecute or insult us and why are you pre-emptively telling us not to worry about possible furture people who will insult and persecute us and say all kinds of evil against us because of you?

You're GOD, right? You're the MESSIAH, right? I mean, what you're saying would make sense if you're a liar or a phony--you know, like just some guy named Fred who is trying to sell us some snake oil and forewarning us about any possible side effects that might happen, because you know damn well it's full of snake venom and pig urine and are just covering your ass, but you're THE SON OF GOD!

Aren't you? Wouldn't the rest of the world be absolutely thrilled to hear our miraculous tale of how we actually met God, the one true creator of all the universe? I mean, you are He, aren't you? So why the f*ck would anyone persecute us and insult us and say all kinds of evil things against us because of you?

Unless, of course, you know you're a fraud and others will know it too and these good, innocent, desperate, superstitious people that you're shilling your snake oil poison to will get sick on the snake venom and pig urine.

Yes, be so happy that you are meek, mournful, unjustly persecuted and most likely will be victimized for being the desperate, hungry simpletons you all are, because, once you are dead it no longer matters and the ruling elite have done whatever they want to you, you will be giving a great big ice cream cone! Wee! Won't that be great? And it's the bestest ice cream cone you've ever had, yes it is!

Pure, unmitigated slave mentality horseshit designed entirely to tell downtrodden people desperate for hope that their salvation will come by staying exactly the way they are!

Thus endeth the Beatitudes.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

WJ

...and the Sermon is: Do you *feel* better now? I know I do!

Jobar

WJ, speaking as a mod- you are contributing nothing to this discussion. If you continue with your unintelligent and trifling comments I will start deleting them.

This forum is useless if the arguments and discussions become personal. If you have no clear and reasonable comments- shut up.