Jat

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel

Big difference with India/Pakistan: There was an *EXCHANGE* of people there. Hindus went to India, Muslims went to Pakistan. There was a place for them to go that would welcome them and foul play on either side would endanger their own people.

There isn't all that much of a difference. Many Israelis are still citizens of other nations.

The Jews have long since fled the Arab areas, there's no exchange. There's also no place for them to go.

What, there are no Jews anywhere else on the planet?


Oh, the Arabs have a time machine??

Nonsense.

The occupied territories happened in 67. The attacks on Israel started in 48.

It takes time to build up enough of a force to mount an invasion force. They had to get enough soldiers.

Jat

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Loren Pechtel

Go back where? Most of them have no place to go back to.

Many still have citizenship in other nations and many other's have duel citizenship as well because of their parents. Even Canada would be willing to take in many of them since most of them are highly educated and skilled. And we're always looking for new immigrants.

And how should they give them a real trial?? The only way they can catch them is with a missile. I haven't heard of a missile that can handcuff someone and haul them off to jail.

That is like saying that the only good Indian is a dead Indian.

If Sharon hadn't bombed and murdered the Palestinian police force maybe they could have done something.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Jat
Many still have citizenship in other nations and many other's have duel citizenship as well because of their parents. Even Canada would be willing to take in many of them since most of them are highly educated and skilled. And we're always looking for new immigrants.

And what becomes of the ones who don't have a place to go? They die?

And how should they give them a real trial?? The only way they can catch them is with a missile. I haven't heard of a missile that can handcuff someone and haul them off to jail.

That is like saying that the only good Indian is a dead Indian.

No. I'm saying there's no way to arrest them. Cops can't move at missile speeds.

If Sharon hadn't bombed and murdered the Palestinian police force maybe they could have done something.

The Palestinian cops were aiding the terrorists.

Sauron

Why would they need a place to go? "Since they have no place to go, that's a reason for Israel to exist" doesn't work, because these Jews:

(a) aren't being evicted from their current country of residence;
(b) aren't being banned from the country in which they have dual citizenship;
(c) can go to the many *other* countries in the world that would accept them

Sounds like you're postulating (yet another) bogus crisis. Why? Apparently, as a way to create a justification for Israel's existence, and to rationalize away the human rights violations that Israel engages in on a daily basis.

They were? Care to provide some sources for that?

But as long as we're talking about officials aiding radicals, seems to me that the Israeli security forces are aiding the West Bank settlers as well as covering up atrocities. I suggest you read the Amnesty International report on conditions in Israel.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-isr/index

Israel even made the State Department list of countries engaged in acts of oppression and denying human rights. Here from Human Rights Watch:
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/03/state030402.htm

At some point, the evidence is simply overwhelming. For anyone who isn't a zionist apologist, that point was reached long, long ago.

Corwin

Of course not! It's not as if any or several of the several dozen terrorist groups in the region will actually try to carry out their stated goal of butchering every jew in the area.... I mean come on! Don't be a Zionist!

Sauron

Just jumping in for fun? Or are you actually following the thread?

The comment under discussion (from Jat) is about returning to countries where these Jews have dual citizenship already:

Many still have citizenship in other nations and many other's have duel citizenship as well because of their parents. Even Canada would be willing to take in many of them since most of them are highly educated and skilled. And we're always looking for new immigrants

Loren postulated a need to "go somewhere". Where's the need? What Jews in which countries need to "go somewhere"? And why isn't the need satisfied by the dual citizenship mentioned above?

I also noticed that you skipped over the Amnesty report, the Human Rights Watch Report, and the State Dept report on Israeli atrocities. A little too much for you, was it?

Corwin

Little of both actually, varying on how much Jat's 'fellow traveller' nazi sympathism turns my stomach.

Yes.... because having citizenship in european countries has been SUCH an effective deterrent against being murdered by rampaging antisemetic mobs over the past twelve hundred years or so....

Of course there's no need for them to go anywhere. Just ask Jat. All those nasty jews need to walk out in the streets so that the carbombs will get all of them.

Yes, I skipped over them. Even assuming there have been some atrocities, (which I'm willing to concede in some cases) to call them a consistent, organized pattern of official genocide is more than a bit of a stretch. (By the way, you might want to expand your sources a bit... Amnesty, while I respect them greatly, is frequently a bit overly credulous. They think Lyndon LaRouche is a political prisoner for godless sake....)

So because a few outside groups list 'atrocities,' this is reason to allow several million civilians to be butchered for their ethnicity? I'm thinking no. But then of course I'm an evil Zionist pawn.

Sauron

1. There was no dual citizenship in Europe. Your rebuttal is dead on arrival.

2. So anyone that was ever killed in history needs a homeland to somehow prevent that from happening? By that argument, celtic pagans in France and Germany need their own homeland.

Take that up with Jat - I'm not defending his position, primarily because I am still unclear about what it is.

I'm only discussing Loren's response to this one particular statement by Jat.


Official genocide? I'm not sure how you define that.

Relocation and removal of non-Jewish elements in their society? I.e., ethnic cleansing? That's a little closer to the mark.

I listed three sources, not just Amnesty. The conclusions were the same among the three. Your rebuttal does not hold.

Non sequitir response. Overstate things much, do you?

Addressing and rectifying Israeli human rights atrocities would not cause "several million people to be butchered. Neither would being honest and admitting that Israel engages in such activities.

By the way, since we were talking about the dual citizenship question, and the "need to go" somewhere that Loren postulated, would you care to outline your scenario where "several million citizens" would be butchered?

Given the context of my response to Loren, I mean? And not some hypothetical dismantling of the state of Israel?

I don't know if you are a zionist or not.
So far you're just poorly informed.

Jat

Originally posted by Loren Pechtel

And what becomes of the ones who don't have a place to go? They die?

You're really limited in your thinking, aren't you?

No. I'm saying there's no way to arrest them. Cops can't move at missile speeds.

Maybe the cops in the USA should start using "guided" missiles instead of going on high speed chases? They could use them mainly while going through low income areas and "kill two birds with one stone" like the Israelis do?

The Palestinian cops were aiding the terrorists.

They were aiding the freedom fighters.

Corwin

Well as long as we're discussing bogus arguments here.... you might show where any of the Israeli actions compare to Hitler or Milosevic? (Jat's hysteria to the side?)

They're occasionally going a bit over the top in the occupied territories. I'd hardly call the occasional field commander going overboard 'ethnic cleansing.'

The 'dual' issue is irrelevant. It gives them 'a place to go.' Of course, being a citizen of a country besides israel clearly provides them with all jack shit for protection from genocide.... as history shows us.

No, just people that have been putting up with fairly regular, systematic genocide being practiced against them for the past 1200 years or so.