brighid

It is hypocrisy because they are the 1st to scream about any other religion having the same say in the public school systems. They don't want to indoctrinate their children, they want to indoctrinate ALL children and those who speak out against it are called unpatriotic. Furthermore the public school systems are NOT the place for government supported religious doctrines, such as creationism, prayer and oaths to God and country. That is what private organizations are for. Furthermore, they are crying foul because a secular system of government (and school) isn't teaching their religious values - the very system that actually protects their right to say this BS and protects their ability to worship freely. So, it is both an idiotic and unpatriotic stance- oh and hypocritical. Keep your silly superstitions and bigotries in your private temples of worship and out of our government and public schools.

B

bonduca

ManM -
The Laramie Project was inspired by a young homosexual man who was brutally murdered by homophobic idiots. Do you have any objection to this play being presented? Are you in favor of encouraging children to adopt the attitudes of Matthew Shepard's killers?

Wyz_sub10

No, we should teach them science. Is science okay, or would you prefer that your physician not learn science and close his eyes and pray when removing your appendix?

Your unwillingness to accept evolution has no bearing on its validity as science.

If you like, please provide one reason why 1) evolution is indoctrination, moreso than, say, genetics, *or* 2) evolution is not valid science.

nogods4me

ManM, do you really not get it?
The only way for everyone in the US to have true freedom of religion is for the government to be completely secular. It may not in any way, shape or form, give preferential treatment to, or acknowledge the superiority of, any religion, or group of religions. To do so elevates some groups and lowers others in the eyes of the government and it's citizens. It is required that the government and it's agencies be completely neutral in all matters of religion save those which may cause harm or injury to the citizenry. In this way all religions are allowed to flourish and to participate in the government on equal footing. One cannot have Freedom of Religionwithout also having Freedom from Religion.

ManM

brighid,
They want taught what they believe is right. You want taught what you believe is right. A Muslim wants taught what he believes is right. I want taught what I believe is right. I would call this honesty, not hypocrisy.

Stop forcing me to support your public schools (and naturalistic indoctrination) with my tax dollars. You don't want your money to go to religious indoctrination, yet you want mine to go to naturalistic indoctrination?

Corwin

Yet we subsidize your churches ManM....

We pay taxes so your churches don't have to.

eldar1011

And soon, we will be doing more, thanks to the "faith based initiative".

Wonderful, isn't it?

eldar1011

Naturalistic indoctrination? What?

It's science. And as brighid pointed out (which you blatantly ignored), the scientific method allows, indeed requires, evidence, testing and change.

This is your idea of indoctrination? It's not a very effective form of indoctrination, is it? I mean, it *encourages* challenges and critical thinking.

Does religion? Be honest.

As for your tax money, think of it as a trade-off. Send your kid to parochical schools with those unconstitutional school vouchers, it'll be like getting your money back and then some. Trust me, you'll make out better than the rest of us.

brighid

ManM,

You have the freedom to take your children out of the public school system and send them to a religious school that supports your form of indoctrination. Your tax $$ go to more then schools, and you and your churches are supported by MY tax $$ and yet are able to claim tax-exempt status. So, take your children out of the secular school system if it's SUCH a problem for you.

Separation of Church and State is ABSOLUTELY necessary for you and every other religious and non-religious person to enjoy the freedom of thought, speech and worship. A secular government and the public systems funded by the tax dollars from ALL people (E Pluribus Unum) should NEVER play favorites within religion. But science is not a religion and the natural world cannot be obfuscated by supernatural nonesense. Science has debunked all the superstitious clap-trap religion has preaced about the natural world in which we live. But hey - if you don't want to learn how the laws of physics, chemistry and biology affect you and your children - fine. Wallow in your ignorance in favor of your specific form of the Christian deities. You have that freedom, but when your religious superstitions infiltrate secular schools in order to indoctrinate non-religious children or children of different religious background into your "way" of thinking (that isn't supported by ANY evidence), including passing on their ridiculous prejudices that is where I draw the line. Hey, stop paying your taxes and tell your Churches to quit accepting government $$. And who said hypocrites aren't being honest about their beliefs? They are still hypocrites. Or better yet, why don't the Churches start paying taxes so that way they have some legitimate claim as to how the government should do things, but as of now those organizations are TAX EXEMPT and should keep their mouthes shut outside of their own private organizations.

Brighid

ManM

Corwin,
I have an idea, let's work together and knock down the wall between church and state. That way you can get Congress to make a law for taxing Churches.

eldar1011,
Naturalism encourages challenges and critical thinking within its own bounds. Religion encourages challenges and critical thinking within its own theological bounds. Both are systems we use to interpret and explain the world. I disagree with your explanation of the world. I certainly do not like having to pay so that your explanation can be imposed on the next generation.

Sorry, but I wouldn't have that option. Florida has no voucher program.

brighid,
I'm curious, what percentage of your tax dollars go to a church for the purpose of religious education? Things like vouchers make it so that both of us have to pay for educational material we don't agree with. Hey, if no one is happy then it must be a good compromise, right?

Just a fine point: the fact that I am critical of science does not make me ignorant of it. Anyway, you are trying to indoctrinate children of different philosophical backgrounds into your "way" of thinking. Thinking that your worldview is right does not change the fact that you are indoctrinating children into your way of thinking. Regarding evidence, we interpret the same evidence in different ways, and so it appears to each of us that the evidence supports our particular viewpoint. Yet, what we cite as evidence is completely unconvincing to our opponents in debate because it is interpreted differently to begin with. I find it quite silly when anyone claims that the evidence supports them. The evidence supports what we want it to support and the details are only a matter of creativity. So go ahead and wallow in your narrow-minded faith in science. As Feyerabend wrote, "science is much closer to myth than a scientific philosophy is prepared to admit. It is one of the many forms of thought that have been developed by man, and not necessarily the best. It is conspicuous, noisy, and impudent, but it is inherently superior only for those who have already decided in favour of a certain ideology, or who have accepted it without ever having examined its advantages and its limits."

I just hope you can understand that I do not want children to be indoctrinated into your beliefs anymore than you want them to be indoctrinated into my beliefs. But ignorance marches on, and hence so must the war of ideologies. Taking sides in the war does not make one a hypocrite. If you disagree with that, by your own standards you are a hypocrite. I cannot make my point any clearer than that.