Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Viti · 03-12-2002, 09:20 PM

I have three dogs...and have never not had a dog in my whole life. There were definite differences in intelligence...but that is not consciousness is it? I just don't know the definition

My Rottie (O'Shea) is the first dog I have ever had that reacts to TV...he hates anything that flies in real life (bugs, airplanes, birds) and will jump and whine at the TV if there is anything flying. He also reacts to other animals on TV....but completly ignores people on it.

I read an interesting study (i'll see if I can find it). A scientist was setting up some elaborate contraption for reasearch with dolphins. One dolphin watched him while he was building it and seemed to figure out the goal of the machine before it was even finished. He began hitting levers or buttons or whatever. The researchers seemed to think this indicated anticipation and forethought as it was obviously not a learned behavior...they had never used the thing. We also do not know the extent of their language as much of their sound is beyond human hearing range. I don't know how we could measure their intelligence as it is probably so alien to us....but what if it is equal to the apes, just different?

Thought provoking topic

ksagnostic · 03-12-2002, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster:
I know that there is huge controversy about human consciousness. What is it, how is it and where is it. But, animals such as my dog, are usually left out of the the consciousness debate. Yet, I feel there is something there looking at me which knows it is there and is conscious.

Well let me get to my quetion for the scientists here. Is consciousness only a human ability and thus being defined as such, is it not an ability shared by my dog? If my dog has consciousness, is it a consciousness of a different kind or of a degree from the human version?

Tough questions. As others have said, it depends on what is meant by consciousness. However, if consciousness is defined as "self awareness", then I am not sure your questions become easier to answer. My own suspicion is that dogs ARE conscious, self aware beings, even if the range of their self awareness is greatly restricted compared to humans. I confess that I am operating on a hunch at this point. However, I suspect that everyone else is also operating at a hunch level when it comes to answering your kind of questions.

For those interested in the topic of "animal consciousness",I would recommend reading ANIMAL MINDS by Donald Griffin (the founding father of cognitive ethology), and WILD MINDS by Marc Hauser.

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: ksagnostic ]

echidna · 03-12-2002, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist:
I don't know how far dogs could get in these stages - but most wouldn't pass stage 1.

Similarly there are many intellectually disabled who would barely pass stage 1.

To me as with many animals they display self-awareness, intelligence, and emotions.

I�d also suggest that dogs understand the concept of right and wrong. When even in humans it�s hard to separate our belief structure between free choice-making and simply following authoritarian (owner = parent) rules, their open displays of guilt when they�ve just stolen your dinner, are extremely comparable with our own.

In a way for me, my own self-awareness began with my first memories at age 4. I feel that my self-awareness has varied little, the main change over the years has been the development of some limited intelligence which has enabled me to put my own self-awareness into a larger context.

three4jump · 03-12-2002, 10:48 PM

Corey, in response to my assertion that my dog has the use of language, you replied that it's not language, only learned respnses to verbal cues. Asked him what he thought of your opinion, and he said, "Bite me."

Actually, although I think I understand your reasoning, I'm not quite convinced yet that my dog doesn't have the use of language. One definition:
"Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols." I feel that I am communicating with him fairly well, perhaps better than I can with some people. I can't discuss consciousness with him, but I can express emotion, intention, and approval, and I can also understand his responses to my verbal commands.

When Porter and I go to the park, we often see Retta and her owner. (It's funny how I know all the names of the dogs I meet in the park but only about a third of the owners' names.) Retta's master throws a dummy into the woods while she isn't looking. Through a series of whistles, commands, and hand signals, he directs her to go forward 100 feet, to the left a little, around the bush, and down the hill to fetch the dummy. You could convince me that this was all learned responses to sensory cues, but at the same time I see that a complex series of instructions was communicated through a standardized language. The fact that it may be responses to cues does not, in my view, prohibit it from being language.

It's not human language, but it communicates all the important concepts that need to be transmitted from human to dog and from dog to human.

MortalWombat · 03-13-2002, 05:35 AM

When I saw the title of this thread I thought maybe the original poster had one of those <a href="http://www.med.stanford.edu/school/Psychiatry/narcolepsy/doberman.html" target="_blank">narcoleptic dobermans</a>.

Corey Hammer · 03-13-2002, 09:44 AM

Quote:

lady Shea:

We also do not know the extent of their language as much of their sound is beyond human hearing range. I don't know how we could measure their intelligence as it is probably so alien to us....but what if it is equal to the apes, just different?

Good question. They might as well be saying: "So long and thanks for all the fish."

Seriously though, we can extend that question to: How will we know when we've meet a non-terrestial intelligence if it is radically different from ours?

Quote:

echidna:

Similarly there are many intellectually disabled who would barely pass stage 1.

No, extremely few. Nearly all people obtain the full range of object permanence (and other hallmarks) and are able to move beyond sensorimotor constructs into linguistic constructs. Only the extremely impaired fail to do so.

Quote:

To me as with many animals they display self-awareness, intelligence, and emotions.

All mammals should display some level of those characteristics with qualitative and quantitative differences.

Quote:

three4jump:

Asked him what he [his dog] thought of your opinion, and he said, "Bite me."

Are you sure he isn't a cat?

Quote:

Actually, although I think I understand your reasoning, I'm not quite convinced yet that my dog doesn't have the use of language. One definition:
"Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols."

The key word is symbols. Languages are symbolic. Only one animal processes the world as symbols (humans are one, but dogs most certainly don't. Language is both vocabulary and syntax. While it's likely that Canis lupus does have precursor regions to Wernicke's and Broca's areas, they do not have either. Both are essential to linguistic processing.

Quote:

I feel that I am communicating with him fairly well, perhaps better than I can with some people. I can't discuss consciousness with him, but I can express emotion, intention, and approval, and I can also understand his responses to my verbal commands.

You are communicating non-symbolically, yes. You have both learned sets of responses to the other's behaviors. I can't say whether or not your dog can ascribe any meaning to your actions beyond the stimulus(reward/punishment)-response set. I would say that it's quite possible that it understands the very basic emotions (pain, pleasure, & fear).

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Corey Hammer ]

crocodile deathroll · 03-13-2002, 12:09 PM

I am sure a dog is conscious, but I think a more pertinant is for this thread is:
Does a dog have a mind?
That is very debateable

Mageth · 03-13-2002, 12:24 PM

Rather than answering myself, I'll let my dog Tasha answer:

Woof! Woof! Woof! Woof! Woof!

Translating, she said "Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!"

So that's Tasha's take on it. As long as I feed her and pet her she's happy. She doesn't appear to give a damn whether she (or me, or the cat) has a conscious or a mind. Perhaps that's the defining difference between us and dogs - when you get down to it, they just don't give a damn about stuff like that.

Corwin · 03-13-2002, 12:25 PM

I don't know that it's all that debatable. The answer to the question is clearly yes. (As anyone who's spent any time around dogs can tell you...) I suppose the more relevant question is 'how much can that mind actually DO?' The answer to that is debatable, and varies on breed. For just about all of them? The answer is clearly 'not a whole hell of a lot, but at least he knows what's edible and how to breed.... so it does as much as he needs it to do.'

three4jump · 03-13-2002, 01:43 PM

An even more relevant question is: Is my dog a person? And if so, can he and I drive in the carpool lane without getting a ticket? I haven't yet tested this question with a police officer. Actually, since my wife used to be a police officer, I asked her, but she just laughed at me and refused to dignifiy my inane suggestion with a serious response.

Recently a woman near here was driving in the carpool lane with a mannequin wearing a wig. <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/local/scj/A85512.asp" target="_blank">article.</a> She sent fifteen highschool kids to the hospital when she caused and 8 vehicle pile-up including two buses, and she got her name printed in the paper so everyone now knows she's an imbecile.

By comparison, my dog fits the definition of "person" or "passenger" or "occupant" much better. If you were a police officer and you caught my dog and me driving in the carpool lane, would you:
A. Apologize for pulling me over and tell my dog to put on his seat belt.
B. Give me a ticket for massive stupidity.
C. Put me in jail.
D. Shoot me.
(This question assumes, of course, that it was me driving, and not my dog. His skills need improvement before I'll let him on the freeway.)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-12-2002, 09:20 PM	#11
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	I have three dogs...and have never not had a dog in my whole life. There were definite differences in intelligence...but that is not consciousness is it? I just don't know the definition My Rottie (O'Shea) is the first dog I have ever had that reacts to TV...he hates anything that flies in real life (bugs, airplanes, birds) and will jump and whine at the TV if there is anything flying. He also reacts to other animals on TV....but completly ignores people on it. I read an interesting study (i'll see if I can find it). A scientist was setting up some elaborate contraption for reasearch with dolphins. One dolphin watched him while he was building it and seemed to figure out the goal of the machine before it was even finished. He began hitting levers or buttons or whatever. The researchers seemed to think this indicated anticipation and forethought as it was obviously not a learned behavior...they had never used the thing. We also do not know the extent of their language as much of their sound is beyond human hearing range. I don't know how we could measure their intelligence as it is probably so alien to us....but what if it is equal to the apes, just different? Thought provoking topic

03-12-2002, 10:48 PM	#14
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	Corey, in response to my assertion that my dog has the use of language, you replied that it's not language, only learned respnses to verbal cues. Asked him what he thought of your opinion, and he said, "Bite me." Actually, although I think I understand your reasoning, I'm not quite convinced yet that my dog doesn't have the use of language. One definition: "Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols." I feel that I am communicating with him fairly well, perhaps better than I can with some people. I can't discuss consciousness with him, but I can express emotion, intention, and approval, and I can also understand his responses to my verbal commands. When Porter and I go to the park, we often see Retta and her owner. (It's funny how I know all the names of the dogs I meet in the park but only about a third of the owners' names.) Retta's master throws a dummy into the woods while she isn't looking. Through a series of whistles, commands, and hand signals, he directs her to go forward 100 feet, to the left a little, around the bush, and down the hill to fetch the dummy. You could convince me that this was all learned responses to sensory cues, but at the same time I see that a complex series of instructions was communicated through a standardized language. The fact that it may be responses to cues does not, in my view, prohibit it from being language. It's not human language, but it communicates all the important concepts that need to be transmitted from human to dog and from dog to human.

03-13-2002, 05:35 AM	#15
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	When I saw the title of this thread I thought maybe the original poster had one of those <a href="http://www.med.stanford.edu/school/Psychiatry/narcolepsy/doberman.html" target="_blank">narcoleptic dobermans</a>.

03-13-2002, 12:09 PM	#17
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	I am sure a dog is conscious, but I think a more pertinant is for this thread is: Does a dog have a mind? That is very debateable

03-13-2002, 12:24 PM	#18
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Rather than answering myself, I'll let my dog Tasha answer: Woof! Woof! Woof! Woof! Woof! Translating, she said "Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!" So that's Tasha's take on it. As long as I feed her and pet her she's happy. She doesn't appear to give a damn whether she (or me, or the cat) has a conscious or a mind. Perhaps that's the defining difference between us and dogs - when you get down to it, they just don't give a damn about stuff like that.

03-13-2002, 12:25 PM	#19
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	I don't know that it's all that debatable. The answer to the question is clearly yes. (As anyone who's spent any time around dogs can tell you...) I suppose the more relevant question is 'how much can that mind actually DO?' The answer to that is debatable, and varies on breed. For just about all of them? The answer is clearly 'not a whole hell of a lot, but at least he knows what's edible and how to breed.... so it does as much as he needs it to do.'

03-13-2002, 01:43 PM	#20
three4jump Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Useless Bay Posts: 1,434	An even more relevant question is: Is my dog a person? And if so, can he and I drive in the carpool lane without getting a ticket? I haven't yet tested this question with a police officer. Actually, since my wife used to be a police officer, I asked her, but she just laughed at me and refused to dignifiy my inane suggestion with a serious response. Recently a woman near here was driving in the carpool lane with a mannequin wearing a wig. <a href="http://www.msnbc.com/local/scj/A85512.asp" target="_blank">article.</a> She sent fifteen highschool kids to the hospital when she caused and 8 vehicle pile-up including two buses, and she got her name printed in the paper so everyone now knows she's an imbecile. By comparison, my dog fits the definition of "person" or "passenger" or "occupant" much better. If you were a police officer and you caught my dog and me driving in the carpool lane, would you: A. Apologize for pulling me over and tell my dog to put on his seat belt. B. Give me a ticket for massive stupidity. C. Put me in jail. D. Shoot me. (This question assumes, of course, that it was me driving, and not my dog. His skills need improvement before I'll let him on the freeway.)

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.