beachbum

Wolf

I read or heard something about elders giving their wives a secret name and then calling thier wives by this name to them, after they are dead. It is then the dead mormon and his wife/wives responsibility to populate some new region. Is this all bullshit or is there a grain of mormon truth in there?

Stan

Kosh

Of course, if we're talking about just and economic
collapse, the US Gov will still run things.

If we're talking about a governmental collapse,hte
people with the most guns will run things.

So the real question is Wolf, did all those LDS
plans include munitions of any kind?

pepperlandgirl

Regarding:

Baptism for the Dead-It's done my proxy, and you can only "baptize" family members.

Food Storage-One must remember when the Church was formed, they were chased from state to state, and most of them lost everything. I don't see anything wrong with keeping food storage, etc. Maybe that's because I was actually raised in Northern Utah in a veyr rural area, where it was entirely plausible to be cut off from stores.

Now come on. How reasonable is this? How much power could they possibly hold over the government when they aren't even considered "real" Christians? There are currently 11 million members in the world---the best the Church can do is to tell all the members to vote in blocks. But I'm sure LDS isn't the only religion where the members all vote the same.
I also don't understand what's wrong with self-sufficiency.
Again, look at their roots. The Church's early members made a lot of sacrifices, and quite a few died. The martyr complex is still there, and they are just protecting themselves.

I also don't think it's fair to compare the LDS to religious fundamentalists. Or at least, Islam fundamentalists. I'll go on record right now and say the LDS is not trying to destroy the government, kill millions of people, etc.
Not buying it. I was there for quite a few years myself, and I never came to this conclusion.

I can't comment on the actual ceremony where the "secret" name is given, as I never made it into the Temple (left long before I was "worthy"). But here's the deal. There are 3 levels of heaven, and no hell. Even the 3rd level is still pretty great. The only way to reach the 1st level is to be sealed in marriage to a spouse. That's because if you do everything perfectly as possible, follow all the doctrines, be good people, etc, the marital unit will become a Godhead. Well, no sense in being part of a Godhead if you don't have a world, right? So the marital unit populates world(s). That's your eternal reward: to become a God.
Fairly reasonable, if you ask me.

Mormon Missionaries--recently the focus of the Church has changed from "conversion" to "good-work". IOW, instead of knocking on doors and talking people into it, the young men and women are sent to do community service, help the church, volunteer to work with elderly, etc etc. They are to lead by example.
All young men are required to serve a mission--it's like a rite of passage. Women do not have to serve, but when they turn 21, they have the option of serving an 18 month mission.
Personally, I think it's a great learning experience. They just throw them out in the world without Mommy an Daddy, and they get to live and experience a new culture. I think everybody should have the oppurtunity to see some of the world.

Well, surprise surprise, quite a few of these girls are really looking forward to this. My sister, for one.
I am, of course, the blacksheep outcast. I plan on becoming a "career" woman and never have kids. Wait till they find out I'm an atheist.

But the young women are certainly not forced to go on missions, or even expected to. Their parents may expect it, but the church doesn't require it. Even as a member, I never planned on going.

If he was a Mormon Missionary,he woul dhave had a nametag that said "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" and his name. You wouldn't have needed to ask.

Egoinos

My mother always talks about how when she was growing up, there were a surprisingly large number of Mormons where she lived (a Catholic area). This was entirely because they used to send handsome young men round the doors, well-dressed and looking prosperous (to this day, few people in that area wear suits, most of the men there work in manual labour, so a guy wearing a suit is a rich man). Lots of girls married the missionaries and joined the church, entirely because the men they sent round were smart and nice.

Always seemed quite a clever way of doing things, really.

--Egoinos--

sighhswolf

I agree that it is a good learning experience for the missionaries, However I myself would not be inclined to spend 18 to 24 months forbidden to listen to the radio, watch TV, not allowed to be within arms length of a female without their partner or another person present.
To readress the issue of political power, LDS
political activists are working every day to fulfill the objectives of the church through legislation, it would suprise you how much clout
they have in Washington.
Perfect example Oren Hatch last week publically
saying to the president that he would not favor
the legislation against cloning and genetic research.....I'm quite sure that there are many
representatives who feel the same way but they have not been specifically named and they did not make headline news reports.
I have nothing against food storage and church farms, what I do take issue with is hording and the specific use of scare tactics. You must have two years worth of food and fresh water stored to survive the coming collapse, according to the GA's.
I do not believe there are now or ever has been three levels of heaven and I certainly do not believe that the pious of the LDS faith will be served by those who to not accept their doctrine.
The aspect of being a slave for eternity does not appeal to me at all.
And while we are at it, I absolutely take issue with the church's doctrine of Temple weddings.
Temple weddings for those of you who do not know is the marriage ceremony in the Temple where the bride and groom are sealed together for all eternity and so with their offspring.
If one of these marriages fail, the parties involved cannot break this binding contract between god and them, without specific church sanction. You can divorce your wife, but if you are not given dispensation,
you are doomed to spend eternity with someone you could not live with on earth.
Think what you want about the long term aim of LDS with regard to the power trip they are on, but it is common knowledge that LDS general authorities based on prophecy are setting up Salt Lake city as the new Zion.
It is also well known the prophecy from the church authorities that the economic collapse of the government of the US will happen, bringing the whole world's economy to a screaching halt.
The church has stated that economic collapse will be followed by total anarchy and will result in massive food shortages, and violent uprising.
At that time the Mormon GA's will assume the role of government and establish Salt Lake city as the seat of power on this earth. They will espouse that the only safe place following this collapse will be the Mormon seat of power in Salt Lake City.
Now I dont know if this is obvious to any of you guys but any organization that sets itself up as the food source and fresh water source in a collapsed economy is without doubt hungry for power and has world conquest as it's aim.
Now yes, I understand that this was revelation by the church prophets and that they believe that Zion will be the source of power and influence in the reestablishment of gods kingdom on earth with them at the power center.
Weapons????
Who needs weapons when you can control food and fresh water supplies.
Who needs weapons when you have land and mineral
rights in a collapsed economy?
Who needs weapons when you can effectivly sheild yourself from almost kind of hostilities by the location of the seat of power.
You see I dont speak from a position of bigotry
but a position of an ex-priesthood holder.
There are many things that the church leadership refuses to admit to publically.
They refuse to admit a gender bias within the confines of Mormonism, which in itself is pretty much standard for all religions.
They refuse to admit that they at one time considered Blacks to be inferior as a race, and they therefore were not allowed to become priesthood holders.
The reason mormons were pushed out of everywhere they tried to settle was very clear.
They moved into an area, preaching a Masonic type of mysticism and practicing plural marriage
and historically Brother Smith was a con man and was caught up in shady dealings resulting in his eventual untimely demise. Remember the church operates on the principle that it and it alone holds the keys to the kingdom of god.
There is only on true religion and that is mormonism, and that is pounded into the heads of every single member just as once a month fast and testimony meetings attest to.
"I bear my testimony that the book of Mormon is true and is the unaltered word of god, and that the church is the only true representative of god on earth."
It is dangerous to underestimate the power of organized religion.
I listened to this crap for over 25 years, to wave a flag in faces of members and offer your own personal "godship" with your own personal
"world" in which to play out that role is pathetic
and deluded.
I never once saw the laying on of hands resulting in some cure from god through the power of the priesthood.
In Mormon communities the members lives are totally dominated by the church. In the training material for Bishop's it is made clear that in order to keep your membership from falling away,
you must be able to hold their attention and provide a constant and unyeilding flow of activities and church "callings", a busy Mormon has no time to think about the validity of their faith.
This is a standard cult method of operation and the Mormons have honed it to a fine degree, the brainwashing is constant and unrelenting.
The "home teacher" program is designed to provide information to the bishopric as to the lifestlye of members and whether or not they are living the "word of wisdom". Under the guise of
fellowship, these spies report on the condition of the members "faith".
As with every other cult, those who are involved
as well as non-active members are too close to be able to see the direction and manipulation of
the adherents.
You may have a different view, so be it, but I would caution you to view everything attached to Mormonism with a very close skeptical eye.
And I would also remind you of the fact that throughout the history of mankind there have been those leaders who were able to manipulate their followers into a false sense of protection and a false sense of national pride and those who were involved never once thought about the motivation of the power brokers, leading to some of the worst attrocities ever perpetrated on human kind.
That same type of attitude, that same type of apathy can and does allow for the infliction of much terror and discrimination.
To ignore the ramifications of political power brokers and their agendas is to give up freedoms that were gained by the blood of our forefathers.
Wolf

pepperlandgirl

I just still don't see what the big deal is. They are preparing for what they believe will happen before the 2nd Coming. So? At best they are following their prophet, and at worse they look like fools because the 2nd coming never happened, but they have plenty of grain. Do you honestly think the entire world's economy is going to fail and somehow the LDS Church will be the cause? The solution? Are you really afraid of this happening in your life time? At all?

Mormons preach they are the only way to God. Well, how about that? A religion telling the world it's the only way to God. Every religion does this! Hence all the conflict! It's not like we have 95% of the world living under one religion in peace and harmony at the other 5% in constant conflict. Do you have the same criticism for every other religion (specifically the Christian ones) who claim they are the only way to heaven?

As far as Temple weddings go, you are leaving out one crucial point. The first ceremony is not the sealing ceremony, per se. Families are expected to go back several years later to be completely sealed. The first ceremony is a covenant that you will live your life according to God's doctrine, and in return, He'll seal your family together for eternity.
Therefore, unless you already had the sealing ceremony, divorce really shouldn't be a problem.
Unless my seminary teacher was lying to me....

As far as Orin Hatch goes, hasn't he been a senator an awful long time? I mean, after all, he did make a bid to be President this last election. It's hardly like he's a rookie out on the hill who doesn't know his ass from the Constitution or something.

I think perhaps your break with the Church may have been a bitter one. I'm not surprised in the least, many breaks will all the churches can be bitter and painful. Mine was not because I became an atheist for reasons unrelated to any specific religion. My de-conversion was more general. However, I think we both come to the table with our own biases attatched. Perhaps you're too bitter and I'm not bitter enough and as a result, both of our visions are a bit skewed. I don't know.

sighhswolf

Yes, I would say the same thing about any of the organized christian sects that operate under the same guidelines, because I consider them to be nothing more than closely supervised experiments in social conditioning and brainwashing.
If you have no bad experiences concerning the church and it's doctrines then I congradulate you,
and hope you never do.
I am not speaking of christianity as a whole, I am specifically speaking of LDS.
"Do you honestly think the entire world's economy is going to fail and somehow the LDS Church will be the cause? The solution? Are you really afraid of this happening in your life time? At all?"
Actually I never said that the LDS will be the cause of an economic collapse, only that they are preparing for the coming period of unrest and social upheaval that will follow the collapse and the most important factor is that they have adopted this vision of domination based on the "prophets revelations", and frankly that reeks of a zealous extreme mentality just as the zealots and terrorists of Islam, the only difference is that LDS members are not told to blow up buildings.
With the entire worlds economy at the brink of chaos most of the time, and the unemployment rate steadily rising,
coupled with a steady outflow of financial resources into police actions by the military of many of the worlds most powerful countries, and warfare that is not limited to afghanistan but in other American military actions worldwide I would say that the world economy is unstable even as we speak, it is for all practical purposes a delicate balancing act, and it would take very little to send it into a spiraling decline.
There is always the possibility that public opinion could radically change concerning the police action and efforts to bring Bin Laden to the world court.
The longer this action goes, the more Americans will be passing Judgement on the present leadership and it's ability to actually do what it set out to do, in a reasonable time frame and at reasonable expenditure rate.
I remember Nam, and so do a few others that were my age and how the public was manipulated into supporting a military action until it started to escalate and body bags started coming home from the conflict, the opinions and attitudes changed drastically, and created a social backlash that still exists today.
I am not an alarmist but neither do I wear blinders.
With the worlds religions constantly playing "my god is bigger and badder than your god"...and trying their best to destroy each other in the name of whatever god they ascribe to, who can say from one day to the next what may happen.
I have no crystal ball, and neither does anyone else especially those who make the claim of "Revelation from god" and "prophecy", as the source of their directives.
But all that is beside the point, you should never discount the power of religious ferver and it's effects on the human condition.
To ignore cults and religious fanatics created a world in which we will never again feel totally safe in our own homeland. Ignorance is not bliss,
and apathy will allow those who seek power to gain it with very little effort.
When human beings are given power by other human beings to act in their stead, it is well documented that abuses are nearly always to follow.
Mormon doctrines are designed to make the church THE central part of the lives of their members.
I think you missed the point of the food storage issue and that is that LDS membership is told by their general authorities that they must do this in order to survive, a scare tactic.
A tactic designed to create an atmosphere of closed and binding communities seperated from what THEY consider as undesirable influences.
This is a classic example of cultism, and it is dangerous.
If LDS members want to believe all the crap that flowed from the mind of a "mystic, masonic treasure hunter" looking to make a name for himself and aquire power over other peoples lives and promote an unorthodox lifestyle, then they deserve whatever fate awaits them.
But, when the general authorities attempt to isolate members from outside agitation, screen any and all questions directed to the members and then issue an "offical position" that they expect the membership to unquestionable follow (because it was based on revelation by the living prophet), downplay the goals of the elders quorum and the aspirations of the 70 and hide those from the general public at large, and use the prophecy as a drawing card for new members to present a rosey picture of Mormonism to potential converts based on their belief that no one will be safe in the coming apocalyptic predictions unless they are members of the LDS faith and follow unquestionably the directives of the church, they can no longer be dismissed as an anomoly of present day religious ferver.
They adopt a cult mentality and they take the road of religious terrorism.
Terrorism takes many forms, blowing up buildings is the easiest and most direct way to make a statement, but the more insidious form of terrorism is the isolation of the membership from
all other forms of religion and/or perceived undesirable elments of society , and the establishment of an elitist attitude that leads to a projected feeling of "protection" that only one sect can provide for it's members.
To establish a core belief that you can only survive as a member of one specific religious organization and following it's doctrines, is an isolationist policy which breeds contempt for anyone who exists outside of that boundry.
So with that in mind lets take a look at an average week as an elder and bishop. Lets start with Sunday, up at 6am to get to class at the chapel.
Teach class and then follow with sacrament.
After sacrament there will be a meeting with the bishopric concerning the vacancies that need to be filled and who does not have a current "calling" within the membership.
Remembering that those who do not have a specific calling WILL be assigned something.
At the conclusion of that meeting, there will be a meeting of the activities direction.
Leave the chapel around 2 or 3 o'clock on Sunday afternoon.
At 7:00 pm the relief society has planned an ice cream social and being an elder in good standing you must attend and set an example for the converts that are involved in the investigation process and have been invited to come and enjoy food and fellowship. (nothing makes a convert any quicker than good food, Ha.)
Monday evening the wife has relief society meeting from 6:00 pm to 9:00 pm., while you attend a priesthood meeting.
Tuesday evening you have a budget meeting and a check of tithing funds so that you may send reminders to those who didn't exactly give their 10%, as required.
Wed. the stake center is preparing for a dance, and you must be there to help plan the event.
Thursday evening is choir practice and you dare not miss that practice as there are too few male voices in the choir, to praise god through singing.
Friday evening is your home teaching night, so you and your "Assigned" partner must visit a couple of the members homes, and report to the authorities on the condition of said members adherence to the word of wisdom and church doctrines, along with a message of faith which you will prepare for these members to hear in the comfort of their own home, a little lesson.
Sat. is your day to help at the farm, weeding, plowing, harvesting and so on, if you decide not to participate in the farm work there will be those who will question your dedication (there is always peer pressure to conform).
And of course Sat. evening is FAMILY HOME EVENING where you must plan a family outing or teaching session, and if you have no idea of what to plan, there is the manual for family home evening that is presented as a guide by the general authorities to let you know the direction you should take in your personal family relationships.
Now somewhere along the line you have to setup some kind of fund for the support of your kids when they go out on their missions, considering the lack of financial assistance from the GA's.
This is an example of what my week was like as an elder for nearly 25 years.
No one in their right mind can look at this schedule and not realize and conclude that it is designed to isolate you from outside influences
on your faith, to pull you into a cultlike existence, in which all of your free time is monopolized by the church and your entire existence revolves around LDS doctrines.
This is brainwashing of the highest order.
The greatest tool available to the GA's is the power of peer pressure, and in most cases it serves to steer you in the direction of conformity. It is human nature to want to feel accepted, to be included in some form of group socialization. Many of the converts I have seen being brought into the church have suffered from a lack of companionship and/or a feeling of something "missing" in their lives. And if you actually listen to the commercials produced by the church public relations dept., the theme is usually tied to the feeling that something is missing in your life, you arent as happy as you would like to be but we have the remedy for that unhappiness......... it is the Book Of Mormon and the Bible (which takes a backseat to the BOM) and all you have to do is call us and we will send you one FREE OF CHARGE, it's a gift to you from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Most new converts are wide open to the comforting arms of the church, because it promises to fill a need of acceptance.
Now what did I realize about my own situation?
Only this, my former wife and many like her will let their personal relationships suffer in order to conform to the rigors of LDS style of living.
It becomes the only thing in their lives that gives them some sense of "purpose and belonging".
The development of a strong testimony can and does in many instances cause the demise of all other aspects of life, and becomes the entire focus of their existence.
When a family sits down in the living room every night and has verbal spoken family prayer it is sickening to me.
This is the true developmental aim of cultlike
organizations.
We are not discussing the average Joe Blow christian on the street who attempts to attend his church on sundays and then forgets about it until the next sunday.
We are for all practical purposes discussing a way of life, that in many ways resembles the Jewish faith and it's culture. Both are not simply education about faith, not simply evangelism, but an entire system of social contact
and acceptable social conduct.

Of course I left out the meetings that you are sometimes required to attend, concerning "Temple Preparation Classes" for the new converts.
Or in the case of those who have not been able to live the word of wisdom these classes can prepare you for the interview you must have with the bishop to receive your "Temple Recommend".
In order to enter into the inner sanctum of the temple and perform the duties there you must aquire a Temple recommend from your bishop that says that you have in fact lived the word of wisdom and that you have keep current on your tithing.
Oh yea, because the church does not contribute to the missionaries upkeep who are now in your area teaching and trying to make converts, the membership is required to feed them and see to their needs, so your turn to feed these hungry young people is next week so plan your menu now.

You may think that there is nothing wrong with the above schedule and the forced participation by peer pressure in church functions, and you may not even see the significance of the subtle but
powerful manifestations of doctrine on the lives of the members, and if that is so, who am I to try and dissuade you.
I relate only personal experiences and my personal opinion of the effects of Blind faith.
And everytime I hear some Mormon say, " And I say these things in the name of jesus christ, amen."
I want to puke and then I want to ask who gave them the topic they were speaking on to present to the members, as everyone must take a part in presenting talks in the sacrament meetings at some time or another.
The effects of conditioning through subtle
smiles
and under the guise of fellowship is a deceptive
and devious practice and Mormons are not the only ones who take this pathway.
By the way, I have always wondered about why the church authorities have tried to cover up and bury certain revelatory messages by their founders
like Brigham Young and his Adam/God theory.
And it really aggravates me when I hear someone say that the reason the church policies are constantly changing is because the church depends on revelation from god to the prophet on a continuing basis therefore the doctrines must be fluid and ever changing.
See to me that reeks of policies set according to public opinion, not revelation from god.
And the policies of who may hold the preisthood in the church is a perfect example of that.
Think what you want, believe what you will, but
keep in mind that there are always reasons for doctrinal outlines. Did you not ever wonder why the church uses the Bible, The BOM, the D&C and the pearl of great price to get a simple message across?
Why do you think it would be necessary to teach the love of god and adherence to the principles of Jesus using texts of 4 different volumes?
Overkill comes to mind.
The only real contribution that LDS have made to humanity is the church's position of an established welfare system through the authorities of the church, to eliminate the need for government welfare programs.
And that was done not as a humanitarian gesture,
but one designed to severe the dependence on sources outside of the church which may have differing agendas and long term goals.

The reality is that LDS and the general authorities are interested in one thing and one thing only and that is the rapid growth of it's membership roles, why is that you think?
I know what I was told as an Elder.
And I know the seriousness of those who are involved in the policy making of the church.
Wolf

I used to laugh at the conspiracy theories that abound in our society from many different sources,
and I used to think what harm could possibly be inflicted by people who are religious and followed in the way of their god. I
was wrong.
And so was our country and so was our leaders.
That is the aim of those who would exploit the apathy and generally laugh at fanatics.


<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: sighhswolf ]

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