Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Treacle Worshipper · 07-21-2003, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by Steven Carr
So Jews believed people could come back as ghosts?

Yes. If you read 1 Samuel 28 (here), you'll find they believed a spirit survived after death & could return. (It's the story of the witch of Endor calling up Samuel's spirit for Saul.)

TW

Kosh · 07-21-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Originally posted by Steven Carr
So Jews believed people could come back as ghosts?

Yes. If you read 1 Samuel 28 (here), you'll find they believed a spirit survived after death & could return. (It's the story of the witch of Endor calling up Samuel's spirit for Saul.)

TW

In fact, this is what Crossan's theory is on how the ressurection sightings started. It wasn't uncommon for them to think they were conversing with dead spirits.

Spaz · 07-21-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Originally posted by Steven Carr
So Jews believed people could come back as ghosts?

Yes. If you read 1 Samuel 28 (here), you'll find they believed a spirit survived after death & could return. (It's the story of the witch of Endor calling up Samuel's spirit for Saul.)

Man did he fall for the talking to the dead thing. From an Ewok too.

fried beef sandwich · 07-22-2003, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Well in Mk you have the young man in his white robe sitting in the empty tomb.

A ghoul?

Necrophiliac?

--J.D.

A graverobber caught in the act.

Secular Pinoy · 07-22-2003, 02:35 PM

A pretty stupid graverobber he must've been. What chance does he have of stealing something of value from an unemployed carpenter who lived by begging and charity and executed by the Romans for fun? Maybe he was after Jesus' fat, for making candles?

Doctor X · 07-22-2003, 03:12 PM

Hey! Cut the guy some slack! If he was the same pretty boy from the Markan Garden Scene, he literally lost the shirt off of his back and had to run away naked!

He needed clothes. Maybe he did not know Victor Mature already had Junior's robe. . . .

He needed to start small. . . .

--J.D

judge · 07-23-2003, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secular Pinoy
That didn't really answer anything. How do we know that a "corruptible nature" (whatever that means, please define it) is transmitted through our seeds? What is it like? Is it a gene or some other inheritable substance? None of my questions are answered by your post, so I had to repeat myself.

I can't conceive of any other way it might be transmitted but via our seeds, can you?

If you are really interested you can find some discussions here in the omline books. Particularly in "seed of the woman" and the book about the virgin conception.
Both books are avaliable to download online.

http://www.custance.org/Library/Volu.../chapter1.html

http://www.custance.org/Library/SOTW...Chapter18.html

Secular Pinoy · 07-23-2003, 06:37 AM

The thing is, you're already assuming what remains to be proved, that there is a corrupted nature that is transmitted through human "seed." How do you know? How do we test it? Is there any basis for this belief, other than some vague notion about everyone dying? It sounds like some kind of "curse of the Orginal Sin."

Secular Pinoy · 07-23-2003, 06:44 AM

I tried reading the link you gave me, but as soon as I came upon this line, I sort of lost interest:

Quote:

Now let us assume for the sake of discussion that this is a simple, historic record of what was actually said and done. Adam and Eve were real people, the Garden of Eden a real garden, the trees real trees, and the environmental conditions exactly as stated.

Treacle Worshipper · 07-23-2003, 08:48 AM

What I have wondered about for years is why sin is apparently only passed down the male line. After all, how could Jesus be sinless when he was born of Mary, who was presumably an ordinary sinful human? Unless sinfulness is in the male contribution, which in this case was provided by god & therefore sinless.

I know the Catholics have got an explanation because they say Mary was kept from sin by god, but I haven't heard a Protestant one.

Seems to me that either all women are sinless unless they have sex (female virgins go straight to heaven - in which case they wouldn't need saving in the first place). That also contradicts the bit Paul says about women being saved by childbirth, so that's a double no-no.

Or by some mysterious process all human eggs are sinless until they've been fertilised, 'cos the sperm aren't sinless.

Any more ideas?

This gets even more weird when you consider that it was Eve who was blamed for the fall, not Adam.

TW

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07-21-2003, 05:33 AM	#11
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Originally posted by Steven Carr So Jews believed people could come back as ghosts? Yes. If you read 1 Samuel 28 (here), you'll find they believed a spirit survived after death & could return. (It's the story of the witch of Endor calling up Samuel's spirit for Saul.) TW

07-22-2003, 02:35 PM	#15
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	A pretty stupid graverobber he must've been. What chance does he have of stealing something of value from an unemployed carpenter who lived by begging and charity and executed by the Romans for fun? Maybe he was after Jesus' fat, for making candles?

07-22-2003, 03:12 PM	#16
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Hey! Cut the guy some slack! If he was the same pretty boy from the Markan Garden Scene, he literally lost the shirt off of his back and had to run away naked! He needed clothes. Maybe he did not know Victor Mature already had Junior's robe. . . . He needed to start small. . . . --J.D

07-23-2003, 06:37 AM	#18
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	The thing is, you're already assuming what remains to be proved, that there is a corrupted nature that is transmitted through human "seed." How do you know? How do we test it? Is there any basis for this belief, other than some vague notion about everyone dying? It sounds like some kind of "curse of the Orginal Sin."

07-23-2003, 08:48 AM	#20
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	What I have wondered about for years is why sin is apparently only passed down the male line. After all, how could Jesus be sinless when he was born of Mary, who was presumably an ordinary sinful human? Unless sinfulness is in the male contribution, which in this case was provided by god & therefore sinless. I know the Catholics have got an explanation because they say Mary was kept from sin by god, but I haven't heard a Protestant one. Seems to me that either all women are sinless unless they have sex (female virgins go straight to heaven - in which case they wouldn't need saving in the first place). That also contradicts the bit Paul says about women being saved by childbirth, so that's a double no-no. Or by some mysterious process all human eggs are sinless until they've been fertilised, 'cos the sperm aren't sinless. Any more ideas? This gets even more weird when you consider that it was Eve who was blamed for the fall, not Adam. TW

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