Catquas

Sure. Basically, there is a bunch of evidence for God's existence, along with a bunch of evidence against it. The beliefs of many people in the world is one of the greatest pieces of evidence for it. For me, however, the other big piece is a feeling I have in my mind that he exists. Now of course, there are plausable alternative explainations for these phenomena. So why do I believe God exists, rejecting these alternative explainations?

This is where faith comes in. I have logical evidence that God exists, but this on its own is not sufficient for me to believe. Specifically, I have faith that the feeling of God I have in my head comes from God.

You may object that faith is illogical, but I would prefer to say that it is a-logical. It is not necessary logical to have faith in something, but it is not necessarily illogical either. "Faith" is simply another word for "assumption". An assumption is a belief held without logical justificaton.

So why is the making of assumption a-logical? Because assumption is absolutely necessary in order for belief. All logical arguments contain premeses. These are not proven by the argument; instead, they are assumed. Most premeses we used are backed up by other arguments, and those premeses are backed up by still others. But at some point we come up with some initial premeses, which cannot possibly be supported by logic. These are believed on the basis of faith.

One group of premeses which most people assume are true is the laws of logic. You simply cannot support the laws of logic logically, because this would be a circular argument. Another thing which most people assume (besides idealists) is that our senses have some relation to actual, objective reality. For me, the existence of God is simply a third assumption.

Hiero5ant

For me, the assumption of an invisible Hebrew who lives in the clouds and commands you to give me $100 is simply another assumption.

Can I expect payment by the end of the week, or might you be able to send it to me sooner?

Catquas

My assuming something is not any reason for you to believe it, and vice versa. I was not trying to convince anyone that God exists, I was just explaing why I think he does.

Hiero5ant

Good, so we are in agreement.

I will not assert as a premise, in any argument against you, my ectoplasmic-jew theory provided that you will not assert as premise in any argument your ectoplasmic-jew theory.

Of course, Wittgenstein beat us both to the punch on this: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent."

Does this sound agreeable?

Catquas

Makes perfect sense. I never assert God's existence as a premise in arguments unless the other person agrees God exists (or unless, in the case of this thread, the situation proposed assumes God exists). The purpose of debate is to start from common premeses and discuss what the logical conclusion is.

arkirk

Everything about me came from God! No, I was wrong...NOTHING ABOUT ME CAME FROM GOD! In answer to the question about killing or hurting people for one's God. We better figure out a way to prohibit this. It's already been done and the results were far from satisfactory.

If I hear God's voice directly speaking to me, telling me to go kill ectoplasmic jews, I would be inclined to make an appointment with a good head shrinker. I feel I have lived long enough to know what is real and what is not. So, some split personality halucinatory hearing of voices would be a clue...something's not right upstairs. You know your system does not deliver data like this NORMALLY.

If, on the other hand it is my logic telling me to kill scads of people, I have to re-examine my goals, ,my whole heirarchy of values and preferences. Even though there is a logical argument for murdering people....and that is what it would be if it were up to me to decided life or death...it would be under those circumstances murder...just because it was a matter of option. If a green knight attacks you with his sword...it may not be an option. To choose to put an end to another life without reference to that person's feelings about life and death...just your own "moral" judgements...if it is non-consensual ...it is murder.

When our esteemed American president says he consults God on his war plans, I am concerned that perhaps he is hearing voices? If he is hearing voices something should be done. It should be made public. Here, your leader, with the Titanuim Bag and the Red Telephone to armageddon says he talks regularly with God and we are not all quite worried?

It is obvious that theists readily obey God's commandments to kill those outside the faith. You need not look far. On the other hand, those without the baggage of God or a God-like moral compass, don't really seem as inclined to logic their way into killing others... I am not saying it can't happen. It seems it would simply be less likely to happen with a person who is a skeptic, an agnostic, an atheist. Anyone who humbly admits they may be mistaken tends to be more careful in assessing their actions.

If it is only a numerical superiority (say only two such murders by atheists to millions by believers) it remains a superiority. It is possible for any person with any cosmological leaning whatever to become insane and commit a murder. The question I have about the religious murderers of the world is how many more centuries well this club of psycho-terrorists hold back scientific and social advancement?

All of the murders committed during the inquisitions have the singular quality of being true murders...against the will of the murdered, and at the option of the murderer. We are not accustomed to addressing religious murders of our own faith as if they were just plain murders...no, they were noble acts of piety. No, to the murdered person they were simply murders.

As the heretics were burnt at the stake, as the witches sizzled over an open fire, as the christians found out if lions have bad breath...it was one and the same...unnecessary and completely optional killing.The only thing that gave these killers their option was the belief they were acting in a Moral manner.

The ethical relativist is the LAST PERSON to fill his cup with the blood of another. At this time in our history, where so many are living on the brink of starvation (not eating can lead to halucinations as well) and so many others are madly waving their credoes in each others face, and so many are rattling their sabers, it looks like only a person honest enough with himself to admit to the true situation even has a chance of making some sense out of life. He sees morals more as rules of FAIR exchange with the world, of which he humbly admits he is a part.

TrueMyth

OK, I'm back. Sorry for the delay!

I'm afraid I'm still not convinced on your giving me a squacircle (square and circle at the same time). You presented a three-dimensional object. Both squares and circles are two-dimensional objects. Thus, perhaps I should clarify that it is logically impossible to create a two-dimensional squacircle.

I am a bit confused what you mean regarding the logical possiblility of God changing His mind. My discussion of what it means to be God (ie, Goodness Itself) has nothing to do with Him changing His mind. It is his nature, not His decisions or will. His decisions and will will be in accordance with His nature, b/c to decide or will otherwise would be to no longer be God, since Goodness Itself is essential to God's nature. If you mean "Can God say 'Today I will be a sadist'", then I believe He not only will not, but cannot do so, for the reasons outlined above and in earlier posts. Does this make God less of God? Of course not. If you believe it does, please start a new thread and I would be glad to join in.

Regarding your wife and comparing her to God: very good point. You have hit the nail on the head, and come to the point at which I claim that all of us, without exception, take many (perhaps even a vast majority) of the things we believe on faith. Atheism is a belief system just like Confuscianism or Hinduism or Christianity. It has doctrines and creeds just like all of those, and it has items of belief which are taken on faith (I do not say FAITH ALONE). So do I. We human beings are not cold, calculating Vulcans. We cannot be totally objective and we cannot be totally logical. I take it on faith that God is telling me the truth when in His Word He states, "God is love" (1 John 4:16). For evidence of that, I look at the world around me which He has created and His actions in the past. I find that there is ample evidence to believe this. Some things might seem like contradictions. I then "test and approve" to see if they really are or not. Some I find are so only superficially. Some I find are not so only with a deeper understanding of God. Others I still have not figured out yet. I hope you will attempt to be patient with me as I search, as I will attempt to be with you.

Thanks for your replies!

TrueMyth

Look here:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2320

for a good answer to this.

arkirk

I think Iron Man's point is not only valid but operative. If you hear voices who say they are God, not only can you question your sanity but you still have the problem of determining if these voices are truthful or lying, nurturing or sadistic. You can only interpret.

Imagine a friend who tells you you must kill his son to make him happy. You see what I mean. You make God into some anthropomorphic form and he becomes something on your plane of existence you can understand and consider. The more you anthropomorphize "God" the more God's personality flaws and character flaws become apparent. The more insecure a person is, the more he demands attention...."Build me a temple, worship, observe my special day, kill fatted sheep, heck, kill my boy Jesus." He who can sprout the flowers and fill the firmament with stars would not be so utterly dependent on man;s worship. He also would not be so vindictive toward human lack of concern. What does the ruler of the universe need with human testimony and validation?

If everything is HIS, he doesn't need some insignificant part of HIS stuff to bear some label..."This is JawBone's Chosen." I suspect it might be better to not be near this character who tortures his "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON."

The people who worship attribute to their God a completely lame-brained, socially dependent, cowardly and sadistic nature. If you hear these voices, you simply cannot KNOW if they are telling the truth or lying. It is a dangerous game to play as if a myth were true.

josephpalazzo

Okay, I admit I am an atheist and I would take the gun and shoot the voice that ordered me to kill.