ax

Hey tercel,
Do you believe in the truths of the bible? If genisis is a creation myth, and the author's of the books have got a few facts wrong, how do we know the extent of where these faults, or mistakes or whatever go? You must aknowledge that the original texts were errant free, if not,then
there is no assurance that the bible can be trusted in its teachings. I'm wondering if you claim to be a christian?.
(I'm not saying God does not exist, rather the God of the bible is falsely represented.)

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: ax ]</p>

Tercel

Those are pretty broad and vague questions.
I certainly believe some truths can be found in the Bible.
We manage to live the rest of our lives perfectly okay without an inerrant handbook on how to live. How do we determine how far to trust the Bible - the same way we determine everything else in life: By applying common sense, evidence, logic, critical thinking etc.

I aknowledge that the original texts were <strong>not</strong> error free.

What "assurance" have I lost by denying it? Simply claiming the bible to be inerrant, doesn't provide me with any more assurance than I'd otherwise have.

Yes. And I'm somewhat annoyed at the implication that I might not be a real Christian...

I believe everything in the <a href="http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html" target="_blank">Nicene Creed</a>, plus the doctrine of the Trinity, as well the existence of the Devil + Angels.
I tend to think that qualifies me to call myself a Christian as far as belief goes.

Tercel

And I think of them as teaching a lot of probably accurate theological things plus some questionable theological things, providing some very good moral teachings and some not so good moral teachings, and doing little to no accurate science.

Hmmm... well my ultimate moral guide is me insofar as I decide what I think is right or wrong. However, of external sources, I think the Bible provides the best source for gathering information about morals that I have yet seen.

Your choice.

Well, I think the Bible is an objectively valuable book in that it records the foundations of the most true religion.
Others beg to differ...

Perchance

Ah. All right, I can accept that. (After all, I treat my mind the same way). But what essential quality of the Bible do you see as necessary for "gathering information about morals?" In the past, I've heard people explain it by its simplicity, others by its comprehensiveness, others by its beauty, others by its truth.

I trust my mind the most because I tend not to come to any definite conclusion for months, sometimes years, and I keep thinking of tests that a "moral conclusion" will have to undergo. If it stands those tests then I can, provisionally, accept it.


I'm glad that you do acknowledge that others differ and that you don't seem to be upset about it.

Just one more question, if you don't mind ....

By "most true," rather than "one true," are you saying that you think other religions or ways of approaching the world do have some truth in them?

-Perchance.

ax

Sorry tercel if I seemed arogant, but I was just trying to establish where you were coming from.

Tercel

I'm not sure I understand the question...

They're entitled to their own opinions... even if they're wrong...

Yes.

ax

But do they all lead to the one "heaven" or " enlightenment" or whatever you believe? If you say YES, then you go against " I am the way the truth etc..".

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: ax ]</p>

Perchance

Tercel:

Hmmm. I suppose I should rephrase the question as: "What do you think makes the Bible a good tool for gathering information about morals?"

I've had people tell me in the past that it's because the "major laws" (which for these people seem to amount to the Ten Commandments and "Love thy neighbor) are laid out clearly and simply, so they don't have to go looking for any new "foundations." Every moral problem or law they run into after this is seen as a shade of the originals. So every law about murder would fit under "Thou shalt not kill," and so on.

I've had other people tell me that the Bible is so complex that there are many different ways to apply it to the moral systems of today and sift out what is good from what is wrong, inefficient, or unworkable.

I suppose that that was what I meant. If the Bible is a tool for "gathering information about morals," what, in your opinion, makes it so?

-Perchance.

Tercel

Hmm, somehow I don't think the fact that I'm a Christian has quite gotten through here...
Your question is a pretty general one as "other religions" include anything from Christian heresies through to deliberately Demon-worshipping human-sacrificing cults.
If the question could be rephrased as: "Is it possible for someone who is not a Christian to end up in Heaven?" then my answer is yes.

No I don't, I just interpret it less narrowly. Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way. Salvation comes through Him, and by no other means. Everyone who is saved will be saved through Jesus.
That hardly equates to "If you don't believe in Jesus during your life on earth you are not saved". How does the verse imply that you can't be saved after death, or that you can't by saved by Jesus even if you don't know it?

Tercel

Because it contains the teachings of the early Christian Church about how we should live. The main goal of Christianity is for us to be transformed into the nature of Christ - loving each other as he loved us. The NT contains plenty of helpful advice, reminders and encouragement to live our lives caring for each other and becoming true children of God as we serve each other in love.
A huge proportion of epistles in the NT is dedicated to exhorting us to leave behind the old nature of selfishness, anger, lies, etc and strive for the nature of Christ in compassion, love, kindness, truth, self-control, goodness etc.

Hmm... That seems to me pretty basic stuff. I'd be worried about someone who needs go as far as the Bible to recognise that murdering people generally isn't a morally good thing.

Solving today's moral questions is not the job of the Bible, but perhaps with the help of the Bible you can become the sort of person capable of assessing the moral dilemmas that face us today.