Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amie · 11-27-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xeren:
Didn't god, an omnicient being who knows the future with perfect clarity, know that, if he were to create me, i would not choose him and would end up in hell?

Ultimately I think it comes down to choices. I choose to believe, you choose not to believe. Can you say with certainty that you won't "choose him" for the rest of your life? I am just curious here...one never knows...

Quote:

Essentially, isn't god creating a person just to send them to hell?

I don't believe so. However I can't find any continuity between a loving forgiving God and sending us, his "children" to a place to burn for all eternity simply for using the free will that he gave us. The concept of hell is by far my biggest obstacle in regards to any doctrinal creeds, biblical studies and such that I have taken. I personally think we'll all be together in the end anyways...
on a lighter note...if I am wrong and there is a fire and brimstone hell. I'll do my best to smuggle you into heaven with me xeren

xeren · 11-27-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

Can you say with certainty that you won't "choose him" for the rest of your life? I am just curious here...one never knows...

Hmmm. That is why i shouldn't have used my self as an example. Yes, I may "find god" before i die, and that would get us out of the pressing question, right?

But what about some famous atheist that has already passed. Say, Carl Sagan. He used his free will to reject god, and he died an atheist, and god knew he would die an atheist, which means god created him just to send him to hell.

No more avoiding the question.

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:
...if I am wrong and there is a fire and brimstone hell. I'll do my best to smuggle you into heaven with me xeren

Thanks, because well, according to the Revelation 21:8

Quote:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

-xeren

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: xeren ]

Copernic · 11-28-2002, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

The concept of hell is by far my biggest obstacle in regards to any doctrinal creeds, biblical studies and such that I have taken.

Fiach said it rather convincingly. Many of us, in our search for truth, may have started in your shoes, Amie; rejecting the concept that a loving God sends rightous Bhuddist monks, infants, Eskimos, rationalists, agnostics, etc to the fiery depths of hell for eternity because of they were too ignorant, incredulous, or incompetant to buy the whole John 3:16 thing.

Given Xeron's Bible reference, which you seem to be uncomfortable with, I'm curious to know the foundation of your faith? If you, and many Xtians I know, pick and choose which biblical verse falls within your worldview, and which verse is repugnant to your sensibilities, how are you to know what is correct Xtian theology?
How much of the bible do you reject? 20%? 40%?

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

I personally think we'll all be together in the end anyways...
on a lighter note...if I am wrong and there is a fire and brimstone hell. I'll do my best to smuggle you into heaven with me xeren

It's nice that you think that, but your endtimes desire is unsupported in a rational world, and is not supported by Christian theology.

Regards
J

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Copernic ]

thebeave · 11-28-2002, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fiach:
Atheism is arrived at by deep, considered, rational thinking and critical analysis of all scriptural bases for existence of God(s).

Those who are the most devout believers generally forsake critical analysis and rational processing of data, in order to blindly believe scriptures all of which are irrational on close examination.

So, if there is a God. If God created/designed the human brain/mind, the most rational data processor, capable of filtering out irrational rubbish, then he made us as we are.

He designed some of us with rational brains that are so tightly filtered to weed out rubbish from reasonable data, that we are biologically prone to be rationalists.

He also designed other brains that take all input almost without question, avoid critical analysis, accept all data on authority. They either cannot reaaon fully, cannot filter outrageous rubbish from simple facts, and accept all on hearsay.

The rationalist group have a very high risk or likelihood of being atheists or agnostics. The second group are inevitably going to be theists or accept some religion substitute (UFOism, Big Footism.)

If God made us with the brain structure that we have, is there any justice to condemning one to hell because his brain efficiently filters out what appears to be incredulous bollocks. Is it just to reward the wanker with limited rational capacity, because he/she cannot differentiate reality from rubbish, and accepts a theology deliberately designed to appear as rubbish?

If there is a God, and that God wanted us to believe in he/she/it, that God would reveal himself/herself to all of us convincingly at the same time. He would not give some deliberately crazy sounding prophesy to some village nutter out behind the barn, and expect all of the saner people to believe the nutter. That is the foundation of all religions. Some eccentric bloke gets a revelation that no one else hears, and everyone else is compelled to believe it. I don't think so, unless God is deliberately devious, the ultimate trickster.

But then he creates some brains capable of saying, "hey, that doesn't make sense. It sounds like bloody nonsense." Those people are not going to believe was seems crazy. Should they/we be punished because our brains think more clearly?

Fiach

Theli · 11-28-2002, 08:33 AM

xeren...

Quote:

Didn't god, an omnicient being who knows the future with perfect clarity, know that, if he were to create me, i would not choose him and would end up in hell?

Essentially, isn't god creating a person just to send them to hell?

Actually, I feel sorry for god, as we "misslead" atheists keeps bombarding him with reasons why he's a ridiculous being.
I would think that if we were to create a new god for the 21th century, we'd do best in leaving the omniscience part out.

[ November 28, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]

CALDONIA · 11-28-2002, 12:51 PM

When is the Just God who gives each one the punishment s/he deserves overruled by the Merciful God who gives you no punishment or a lesser one than you deserve?

xeren · 11-29-2002, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Theli:
xeren...
I would think that if we were to create a new god for the 21th century, we'd do best in leaving the omniscience part out.

Or the omni-benevolence

xeren · 11-29-2002, 11:27 PM

For a post directed at theists, there sure haven't been a lot of replies by theists.

Something you guys just can't answer?
<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Humble Heathen · 11-30-2002, 12:23 AM

Wave Man,

I just want to say that I don't know too many Christians like you. I think it's very noble to just say "I don't know" and not pretend that you have all the answers like so many arrogant bible-thumpers. It's a shame that more Christians can't be like you.

Quote:

as for specifics I, as a normal fallible less-then-omniscient being do not know, and again: it really is not my business to judge people, so I don't.

This line is probably the most honest, noble, logical, intelligent sentence I've heard come from a theist (and a Christian, no less) in a long time.

HRG · 11-30-2002, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wave Man:
[QB]Well.

As a Christian, albeit not a fundamentalist bible thumper, I can imagine how God created us with a free will to choose what we wanted to do. He knew people were going to do good, and He knew some would do evil, but He probably thought that giving humans free will was still better than making them slaves of some other will.

And you have your free will to choose what you want to believe, etc, right?

Actually, no. I cannot "choose to believe" that the Earth is flat, or that there are finitely many primes. Nor can I "choose to believe" that Rigel has exactly 31 planets or that gods exist, since there is no evidence which would convince me of either.

If you still claim that belief is a matter of free will, I'd like to to take part in an experiment. Believe - exercising your free will - for an hour in Zeus, then for another hour in Thor. Then you may return to your previous beliefs. Please report back the results.

Regards,
HRG.

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11-28-2002, 12:51 PM	#16
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	When is the Just God who gives each one the punishment s/he deserves overruled by the Merciful God who gives you no punishment or a lesser one than you deserve?

11-29-2002, 11:27 PM	#18
xeren Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Place Posts: 285	For a post directed at theists, there sure haven't been a lot of replies by theists. Something you guys just can't answer? <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

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