Bookman

I do.

Apparently, I'm an unusually enlightened American because when you say "veggies", french fries and catsup are the last thing to leap to mind.

How about fresh spinach in a salad?
Turnip greens with peppered vinegar?
Steamed broccoli?
Frozen brussells sprouts?
Carrots, raw or sauted with butter and dill?
Zucchini, steamed or sauted with olive oil, garlic and rosemary?
Steamed asparagus with a little salt?
How about a nice marinara sauce over pasta? Don't forget the onions and the garlic!

Or a mix of the above (say broccoli, onion, carrot and some red and gree bell peppers) in a spicy thai red chili curry over a bit of rice?

Or perhaps lunch today: a spot of vegetable chili: black beans, tomato, red bell pepper, onion, garlic, and mushroom with some cumin, hot paprika, and cayenne pepper?

Good stuff.

Bookman

scombrid

Oh man talk about good veggies.

For dinner Friday night we scewered zuchini, yellow squash, red and green peppers, and huge hunks of sweat onion and slathered the whole lot in italian dressing then grilled it beside the skillet of blackened redfish. Of course the fact that I drank half a bottle of mediocre cognac probably negated the health benefits but veggies can be tasty.

Does anybody suppose vegemite could quality for anything.

Barney Gumble

As some have theorized, I wonder if those individuals who hate veggies were brought up with them cooked properly - not boiled to the point where they resemble the flacid...well, you get the idea. I believe if it gets implanted in your head at a young age that vegetables=flavourless limp styrofoam-like entities, the harder it will be to overcome that aversion.

Roast turnips/carrots/squash - they're like candy to me, as well they should since that process brings out a lot of the natural sugar. Boiled/steamed vegetables are fine as well, you just have to remember that it's not a cut of meat - err on the side of underdone, there's no Mad Carrot disease that I'm aware of.

The fact my mother ran a nouvelle French cooking school and catering business had something to do with my acceptance of vegetables I guess (na-nana boo-boo!).

So I love vegetables. I'm perfectly healthy...right?

The problem is, candy is also like candy to me.

Stiletto One

YES!!!

(I'm not a big fan of cabbage)

Speaking of which, do beans (like soy beans, and therefore tofu) count in the poultry food group or the fruits & vegetables one?

Godot

I agree, cabbage sucks.
Legumes fall into the meat and nut category. I'm not 100% sure why, but I'd suspect that it has something to do with the protein content more than anything else.

ps418

The American Dietetic Association released a position paper recently on vegan/vegetarian diets. The paper has lots of information and references that participants on this thread would find useful:

Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diet. ADA Reports June 2003 • Volume 103 • Number 6

Patrick

JGL53

A whole lot of studies, but I think the only 'proof' offered here of the alleged 'healthiness' of a vegetarian diet is that

1. IF one eats a diet of a wide variety of vegetables, both starchy and non--starchy, and nuts, seeds, fruit, and small amounts of dairy and eggs, (or takes care to eat a proper mixture of legumes and whole rice/ grains instead of animal protein), and takes care not to overeat (or undereat), and one lives the overall healthy lifestyle that people generally live that take the time to pay this much attention to their diet, i.e., lack of or reduced stress, proper exercise, proper sleep, not smoking, not abusing alchohol or drugs (legal or illegal), etc., etc.,

THEN one will do much, much better on any study of health than

2. If one eats an "All American diet" high in burgers, fries, sugary confections, TV dinners, and one overeats, and doesn't eat a variety of fiberous vegetables, and one leads a 'don't give a shit' lifestyle in general that goes with such a crappy diet, i.e., lack of proper exercise, lack of sleep, too much stress, abuse of drugs and/or alchohol, smoking, etc., etc.

I think we already knew this.

But what if I and millions of others eat a similar diet to the vegetarians, only add in reasonable amounts of red meat, chicken, fish, sea food, and somewhat more eggs and cheese, and somewhat less bread, pasta, white potatoes, and rice?

Are WE, expected to get more cancer, heart attacks, strokes, dementia, diabetes, allergy problems, etc.?

Really? And exactly which website do I go to to find this proof?

If animal protein, especially meat, and especially 'red' meat, has been PROVEN to be ipso facto unhealthy, then what about those paradoxes like the Inuit and the Masai? Am I to assume they are aliens from another planet?

ps418

No, but you could ask some common sense epidemiological questions like: are these cultures identical to Euramerican culture in all health-related factors except their meat consumption, or are there numerous confounding variables, such as exercise, total caloric intake, and so on, that prevent strong causal inferences from their diet to prevalence of heart disease. I for one don't think that meat is at all intrinsically unhealthy, though those in the highest strata of meat consumption are at increased risk for lots of health problems.

Patrick

JGL53

We all know the latter is true. E.g., most Masai walk about 30 miles a day, and most (HaHa) don't eat that many french fries or sliced white bread, or triple scoop ice cream cones etc.

And I and most people agree. Unfortunately, as you can see from the 'studies' on the link you posted, there's a huge amount of prejudice being generated all the time that asserts that red meat IS so intrinsically unhealthy. The ASSUMPTION is always that the red meat is THE causative factor in unhealthiness, not just a 'marker' of an unhealthy lifestyle in general.

Because such people usually have their meat on a fiber-free bun, with a large order of fries, and a large milkshake - instead of having their large serving of lean meat with a salad, two green veggies, and a serving of new potatoes stir-fried in olive oil - AND eat reasonable amounts of food daily.

More meat consumption is a 'marker' for an otherwise unhealthy lifestyle. There is zero proof that red meat per se is for some reason 'unhealthy'. That is my main point.

ps418

Well, now you've gone beyong critiquing the studies and made some specific positive claims. I take you to be saying that the association between red meat consumption and heart disease in the highest strata of red meat consumption is entirely accounted for by different vegetable intake? Do you know of epidemiological studies that measure meat intake, vegetable intake by type, and total caloric intake at the same time, and reveal what you could call a meat x vegetable interaction? Or that look for associations between heart disease and red meat consumption while correcting for vegetable intake and total caloric intake? You may be right and you may be wrong, but you are making a positive claim that you need to justify.

Patrick