Freethought & Rationalism Archive

missus_gumby · 09-01-2002, 10:27 AM

The T-Shirt that will convert the masses. As worn by Dr. Newdow. Probably.

gilly54 · 09-01-2002, 03:24 PM

Oh, M_G! I sure hope he wears it for real when the media cameras are on him!

Darn, I forgot to tell him to turn it inside out and use cold water when washing it.

Gilly

missus_gumby · 09-01-2002, 03:46 PM

Quick! I think someone ought to send Dr. Newdow an email telling him to:

Quote:

ALWAYS READ THE LABEL!!!

ybnormal · 09-01-2002, 05:45 PM

- regarding Newdow's strategy, public support and public relations- I can't imagine this area getting any better in my lifetime, which I was taught, was supposed to be of no consequence in ANY Constitutional case anyway. Those who claim that public support matters, IMO, are admitting defeat now. Then again, the rest of us are left to pray.

This must be fought within the law and without public support. Nothing could be scarier than 70% of Americans (xians) being in agreement with ManM on these issues.

From ManM's posted 1st Amendment - Scary Poll thread:
Seven in 10 said government officials should be allowed to post the Ten Commandments inside government buildings, with 52% strongly supporting such authority.

We've already seen how big this Supreme Court's balls are... I'll bet Newdow will see'em get even bigger.

- regarding Newdow's all-cases-at-once strategy-

Yes, yes yes... an all out attack from all sides is the best way to generate the PR inertia from all those sides at once, which some of you folks say is seriously lacking now anyway... a victory, we can't even imagine... a series of losses could put this already questionable SC on serious public notice to watch its step... besides, while Bush is Prez, the Court ain't gonna get any better for the good doctor.

- regarding the politics-

Half way into the Bush reign... talk about politics... HA! Can we imagine the PR nightmare Newdow would have, had he done this while Clinton was President? I'll still be surprised if we don't see some Ann Coulterite blame Clinton for somehow setting the stage for this.

Finally, I'll keep saying it until I die... to all the folks around here looking for some way to fight this whole thing... there's only 3 ways... politics, politics and more politics... the xians have learned this lesson Supremely well... they have a 30 year head start... altho the Courts are your battleground, it's politics first, that selects your Supreme Commanders for an eternity.

AdamWho · 09-01-2002, 06:58 PM

<a href="http://www.markfiore.com/animation/pledge.html" target="_blank">Here </a>is a animated comment on Newdow's suits.
I saw him speak (same time as Gilly) and he needs to SLOW DOWN and speak up more. He needs a speech coach or PR rep.

Nikolai · 09-01-2002, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ybnormal:


- regarding the politics-

Half way into the Bush reign... talk about politics... HA! Can we imagine the PR nightmare Newdow would have, had he done this while Clinton was President? I'll still be surprised if we don't see some Ann Coulterite blame Clinton for somehow setting the stage for this.

Finally, I'll keep saying it until I die... to all the folks around here looking for some way to fight this whole thing... there's only 3 ways... politics, politics and more politics... the xians have learned this lesson Supremely well... they have a 30 year head start... altho the Courts are your battleground, it's politics first, that selects your Supreme Commanders for an eternity.

Does anyone actually take Ann Coulter seriosly? Of couse she is something like #5 on the bestseller list

Anyway, politics might also be the hardest area to fight because atheists are such a minority. From what I know even liberal christians listen to things the church tells them as long as it doesnt cause conflict or discomfort in their life (like saying gays are the devil and then finding out your best friend is gay). C-S separation is an example of such conflict-free issue (after all it does hurt anyone to have the ten comandments posted on every street corner

). I keep thinking that we need to think of a new way to fight this other then trying to get the majority's opinion.

Buffman · 09-01-2002, 08:45 PM

Nikolai

Does anyone actually take Ann Coulter seriosly? Of couse she is something like #5 on the bestseller list.

Sorry, Nikolai. Coulter's book has been on the best seller's list for nine weeks...many as #1. It may be #5 now, but did you notice whose book is at #2 in its first week? "Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism," by FOX TV's Sean Hannity.

<a href="http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=855&DID=6" target="_blank">http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=855&DID=6</a>

Evidently lots of folks are buying and reading this decidedly right wing propaganda. I can only hope that they are Freethinkers...though the likelihood seems remote.

(ADDED)

And what really distresses me is that these are the very people claiming a liberal media bias.

[ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

ybnormal · 09-01-2002, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Nikolai:
Does anyone actually take Ann Coulter seriosly?

Oh, only about half the adult population...

Anyway, politics might also be the hardest area to fight because atheists are such a minority.

"Hardest" compared to what other option?

Someone on another thread (sorry, to whoever said it to me) mentioned coalitions as one way of combining numbers and political strength... Gays did it... Blacks did it... xians did it... unions did it... there's many ways to provide help and support to candidates who give assurances to blocks of voters... that's how it all works... Atheists don't have to go public to do that... that's their biggest enemy... public identity... Atheists are probably like Gays, in the upper income brackets... just a feeling... money talks in politics... sorry, like you didn't know that...

Frankly, at the rate things are going, folks like this Newdow fellow, throwing cases at the courts has to be the way to go... someone mentioned how he'd applied for chaplin of Congress... this is a thinking ahead kind of guy... I reckon I always believe that the most perfect case it out there just waiting to be discovered... they come right out of the blue sometimes... WHAM! There it is...

I've often thought about someone going the Morris Dees route... Southern Poverty Law Center... go after the money of the KKK... Ayrian Nations, etc.... There's problably thousands of good probable suits just waiting for the right Gay or Atheist to be fired by the Salvation Army or some such xian organization... think Ashcroft himself got involved in a Salvation Army case where a Witch was fired... can't remember... I'm sure the Witch lost... gotta get down and dirty with the lot of'em... gotta get real low to fight as dirty as some of these fine xians... gotta set'em up somehow and knock'em down...

Better yet, maybe get subversive and go after the real Falwells and Robertsons... expose them on tape as the real lying, cheating, Ungodly low down dogs they really are behind closed doors... maybe we should fund a new breed of Atheist investigative reporter...I don't know... just thinking out loud...

I keep thinking that we need to think of a new way to fight this other then trying to get the majority's opinion.

Oops, I maybe got ahead of myself... you right... gotta do everything without that majority stuff... Buffman's been trying to make sense of some guy on another thread about some "new ideas"... he has lots more patience than I do... strange stuff this "new stuff"... seems the guy wants to turn Atheists into some kind of Feed The Children.org or Atheists Salvation Army so we can win the hearts and minds of xians by feeding hungry xians don't cha know... personally, I don't think stealing xian charity ideas is exactly new stuff... besides, this guy is talking about things changing for the better about a century after I die... I keep waiting to see if the other guy's coming back before I say anything about it there...

Sorry... gotta shut up... anyway, I ain't too concerned with anything after my lifetime... I'm big on that for some strange reason... I want to see some action... now!

Peace!

ashibaka · 09-02-2002, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buffman:
Nikolai

did you notice whose book is at #2 in its first week? "Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism," by FOX TV's Sean Hannity.

<a href="http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=855&DID=6" target="_blank">http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=855&DID=6</a>

Quote:

* The Left's sorry record: details of how for years, it has attacked and undermined the very policies and institutions that made our country a beacon of liberty and prosperity
* Why so many leading liberals think that the real threat to America isn't Communism, Islamic radicalism, or terrorism � but conservatism
* Why issues like gays in the military and global warming were more important to the Clinton administration than protecting America from terrorist attack
* Horrifying, but true: how Clinton and his gang refused five chances to obtain important information on Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda between 1996 and 2000
* Why the Left is so contemptuous of our military and intelligence services

* The CIA: how liberals succeeded in hamstringing its work in tracing the activities of Islamic extremists � just when we needed it the most
* Six troubling questions that expose just how badly the Clinton administration bungled its illegal immigration policy � leaving us vulnerable to all kinds of attacks
* The shocking details of how Bill Clinton spent eight years gutting the military � with devastating consequences for our national security
* Four ways terrorists could unleash destruction on an awesome scale in our nation � and how liberals are trying to prevent us from being prepared
* The attack on the Pledge of Allegiance: appalling details of the liberal claim that leading children in the Pledge "makes our country as bad as Osama bin Laden"

Oh, those dastardly liberals! Good thing I'm a Green.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: ashibaka ]

Alonzo Fyfe · 09-02-2002, 08:08 AM

I am not really concerned with any long-range issue of victory or defeat. I am certain that, eventually, the Christian and Muslim myths will travel the same road as the ancient Greek and Norse myths.

What I am concerned about is the suffering to be endured between now and then. From crashing airplanes into buildings to beating gays and tying them to fenceposts to die, to stoning adulterers, how much suffering will be done in the name of God (or Allah, or whomever) between now and then?

If there is ever an intentionally released plague, or city destroyed by nuclear blast, it seems very likely that the destruction will ultimately be credited to somebody acting for religious reasons.

And it seems equally likely that the best way to reduce the threat of such a disaster is through the vigerous defense of the principle that there are certain types of actions that religious reasons cannot justify.

The doctrine of the separation of church and state is something that the whole world needs to learn -- for all of our sake.

It is something that the United States should teach to the world. But we can only teach by example. Every exception that we create in our own country is another place where others can point and call us hypocrites. It is another note of encouragement to the people of the world who want to mix their church and state.

It is a lesson that cannot be taught merely by winning court battles. This cannot be done by informing people, "That is what it says in the Constitution." Or by saying, "This is what our founding fathers wanted." Only a very small portion of the population lives under our Constitution, and even they have the power to change the Constiution -- whether through new interpretation or in fact.

This can only be done by getting the people -- here and abroad -- to recognize the virtue in the idea. That not only is this principle in the Constitution, but its being there is a good thing. That any country without it, or something similar -- or with it but which allows it to erode away due to lack of care -- is worse off because of it.

I do not consider Newdow's barrage of cases to be a bad idea in itself. Indeed, quite the opposite -- to allow holes to stand in the wall weakens it. Look at all of those who argued, "the Pledge has stood unchallenged for 50 years. Why change it now?"

But the effort should be joined with a pedagogical campaign to explain why the the separation is a good idea -- why the wall ought to be there.

Or any victories will be short lived, easily reversed -- and putting even the progress made to date at risk.

And the last thing the world needs is for this country, with all of its power, to fall into the hands of a Christian version of the Taliban.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]

09-01-2002, 08:45 PM	#37
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Nikolai Does anyone actually take Ann Coulter seriosly? Of couse she is something like #5 on the bestseller list. Sorry, Nikolai. Coulter's book has been on the best seller's list for nine weeks...many as #1. It may be #5 now, but did you notice whose book is at #2 in its first week? "Let Freedom Ring: Winning the War of Liberty over Liberalism," by FOX TV's Sean Hannity. <a href="http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=855&DID=6" target="_blank">http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=855&DID=6</a> Evidently lots of folks are buying and reading this decidedly right wing propaganda. I can only hope that they are Freethinkers...though the likelihood seems remote. (ADDED) And what really distresses me is that these are the very people claiming a liberal media bias. [ September 01, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

09-02-2002, 08:08 AM	#40
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I am not really concerned with any long-range issue of victory or defeat. I am certain that, eventually, the Christian and Muslim myths will travel the same road as the ancient Greek and Norse myths. What I am concerned about is the suffering to be endured between now and then. From crashing airplanes into buildings to beating gays and tying them to fenceposts to die, to stoning adulterers, how much suffering will be done in the name of God (or Allah, or whomever) between now and then? If there is ever an intentionally released plague, or city destroyed by nuclear blast, it seems very likely that the destruction will ultimately be credited to somebody acting for religious reasons. And it seems equally likely that the best way to reduce the threat of such a disaster is through the vigerous defense of the principle that there are certain types of actions that religious reasons cannot justify. The doctrine of the separation of church and state is something that the whole world needs to learn -- for all of our sake. It is something that the United States should teach to the world. But we can only teach by example. Every exception that we create in our own country is another place where others can point and call us hypocrites. It is another note of encouragement to the people of the world who want to mix their church and state. It is a lesson that cannot be taught merely by winning court battles. This cannot be done by informing people, "That is what it says in the Constitution." Or by saying, "This is what our founding fathers wanted." Only a very small portion of the population lives under our Constitution, and even they have the power to change the Constiution -- whether through new interpretation or in fact. This can only be done by getting the people -- here and abroad -- to recognize the virtue in the idea. That not only is this principle in the Constitution, but its being there is a good thing. That any country without it, or something similar -- or with it but which allows it to erode away due to lack of care -- is worse off because of it. I do not consider Newdow's barrage of cases to be a bad idea in itself. Indeed, quite the opposite -- to allow holes to stand in the wall weakens it. Look at all of those who argued, "the Pledge has stood unchallenged for 50 years. Why change it now?" But the effort should be joined with a pedagogical campaign to explain why the the separation is a good idea -- why the wall ought to be there. Or any victories will be short lived, easily reversed -- and putting even the progress made to date at risk. And the last thing the world needs is for this country, with all of its power, to fall into the hands of a Christian version of the Taliban. [ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

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09-01-2002, 10:27 AM	#31
missus_gumby Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: UK Posts: 1,898	The T-Shirt that will convert the masses. As worn by Dr. Newdow. Probably.

09-01-2002, 03:24 PM	#32
gilly54 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Almaden, California Posts: 917	Oh, M_G! I sure hope he wears it for real when the media cameras are on him! Darn, I forgot to tell him to turn it inside out and use cold water when washing it. Gilly

09-01-2002, 05:45 PM	#34
ybnormal Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 430	- regarding Newdow's strategy, public support and public relations- I can't imagine this area getting any better in my lifetime, which I was taught, was supposed to be of no consequence in ANY Constitutional case anyway. Those who claim that public support matters, IMO, are admitting defeat now. Then again, the rest of us are left to pray. This must be fought within the law and without public support. Nothing could be scarier than 70% of Americans (xians) being in agreement with ManM on these issues. From ManM's posted 1st Amendment - Scary Poll thread: Seven in 10 said government officials should be allowed to post the Ten Commandments inside government buildings, with 52% strongly supporting such authority. We've already seen how big this Supreme Court's balls are... I'll bet Newdow will see'em get even bigger. - regarding Newdow's all-cases-at-once strategy- Yes, yes yes... an all out attack from all sides is the best way to generate the PR inertia from all those sides at once, which some of you folks say is seriously lacking now anyway... a victory, we can't even imagine... a series of losses could put this already questionable SC on serious public notice to watch its step... besides, while Bush is Prez, the Court ain't gonna get any better for the good doctor. - regarding the politics- Half way into the Bush reign... talk about politics... HA! Can we imagine the PR nightmare Newdow would have, had he done this while Clinton was President? I'll still be surprised if we don't see some Ann Coulterite blame Clinton for somehow setting the stage for this. Finally, I'll keep saying it until I die... to all the folks around here looking for some way to fight this whole thing... there's only 3 ways... politics, politics and more politics... the xians have learned this lesson Supremely well... they have a 30 year head start... altho the Courts are your battleground, it's politics first, that selects your Supreme Commanders for an eternity.

09-01-2002, 06:58 PM	#35
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	<a href="http://www.markfiore.com/animation/pledge.html" target="_blank">Here </a>is a animated comment on Newdow's suits. I saw him speak (same time as Gilly) and he needs to SLOW DOWN and speak up more. He needs a speech coach or PR rep.

09-01-2002, 11:15 PM	#38
ybnormal Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 430	Originally posted by Nikolai: Does anyone actually take Ann Coulter seriosly? Oh, only about half the adult population... *Anyway, politics might also be the hardest* area to fight because atheists are such a minority.** "Hardest" compared to what other option? Someone on another thread (sorry, to whoever said it to me) mentioned coalitions as one way of combining numbers and political strength... Gays did it... Blacks did it... xians did it... unions did it... there's many ways to provide help and support to candidates who give assurances to blocks of voters... that's how it all works... Atheists don't have to go public to do that... that's their biggest enemy... public identity... Atheists are probably like Gays, in the upper income brackets... just a feeling... money talks in politics... sorry, like you didn't know that... Frankly, at the rate things are going, folks like this Newdow fellow, throwing cases at the courts has to be the way to go... someone mentioned how he'd applied for chaplin of Congress... this is a thinking ahead kind of guy... I reckon I always believe that the most perfect case it out there just waiting to be discovered... they come right out of the blue sometimes... WHAM! There it is... I've often thought about someone going the Morris Dees route... Southern Poverty Law Center... go after the money of the KKK... Ayrian Nations, etc.... There's problably thousands of good probable suits just waiting for the right Gay or Atheist to be fired by the Salvation Army or some such xian organization... think Ashcroft himself got involved in a Salvation Army case where a Witch was fired... can't remember... I'm sure the Witch lost... gotta get down and dirty with the lot of'em... gotta get real low to fight as dirty as some of these fine xians... gotta set'em up somehow and knock'em down... Better yet, maybe get subversive and go after the real Falwells and Robertsons... expose them on tape as the real lying, cheating, Ungodly low down dogs they really are behind closed doors... maybe we should fund a new breed of Atheist investigative reporter...I don't know... just thinking out loud... I keep thinking that we need to think of a new way to fight this other then trying to get the majority's opinion. Oops, I maybe got ahead of myself... you right... gotta do everything without that majority stuff... Buffman's been trying to make sense of some guy on another thread about some "new ideas"... he has lots more patience than I do... strange stuff this "new stuff"... seems the guy wants to turn Atheists into some kind of Feed The Children.org or Atheists Salvation Army so we can win the hearts and minds of xians by feeding hungry xians don't cha know... personally, I don't think stealing xian charity ideas is exactly new stuff... besides, this guy is talking about things changing for the better about a century after I die... I keep waiting to see if the other guy's coming back before I say anything about it there... Sorry... gotta shut up... anyway, I ain't too concerned with anything after my lifetime... I'm big on that for some strange reason... I want to see some action... now! Peace!

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