Ensign Steve

Sorry, my dwarfism story is probably getting old, but this is the first time Ice asked, so he has not heard it yet. The method aside (cloning, genetic manipulation, abortion, infantcide), I think the issue of designer babies deserves it's own debate.

I remember a few years ago I heard on the news that they had isoloated the gene that causes dwarfism. IIRC, dwarfism could be corrected without the use of abortion, and the child that would have been born a dwarf could be born a regular child. I can't remember if it was in theory or if they were talking about practical application. At any rate, a bunch of dwarves were getting all bent out of shape, saying that people were trying to make their kind extinct, and the human race would be robbing itself of a unique culture of people. I said "That's dumb. Who want's to be a dwarf if they can avoid it?" My mom asked me, "What if it wasn't dwarfism? What if it was homosexuality?" I was stumped!

I'm really on the fence about this issue. I would hate to see homosexuals become extinct. At the same time, I would love to spare a homosexual person the agony of being gay in a fundie family. But in doing that, I've just theorized my own girlfriend out of existence. I know that given the option, my mom would have kept me gay in the womb, but I imagine she's in the minority.

Sorry, I don't think I've added much, but like I said, I'm on the fence.

I'd like to know other's opinions on this: Methodology aside (abortion, etc.), what do you think about designing ideal babies? I don't want to say "our right" to do so, but just whether we should and what would be the repercussions if the technology became widly available, especially considering that we infidels not always with the majority when it comes to tolerance, etc.

Jen

Edited to add: Sorry, Ice, didn't mean to change your topic, since you asked about abortion specifically. I just know that some people's minds are made up about abortion (mine included), and that sometimes makes talk about this topic kind of stall out.

mike_decock

Even if designer babies became widely available and traits like homosexuality or dwarfism could be eliminited, it wouldn't necessarily lead to the "extinction" of a unique culture. Those within the culture could actually CHOOSE to have dwarves or homosexual children to carry on the traditions, so to speak.

-Mike...

echidna

Quote:

Originally posted by mike_decock

Even if designer babies became widely available and traits like homophobia or dwarfism could be eliminated ...

I might add that some may even argue that dwarfism is not a negative trait either. Certainly a large proportion of the adult deaf community do not recognise deafness as a disability, indeed actively oppose cochlear implants.

Ice

Jen,

Feel free to move the discussion along. I'm not doing very well at it. I'll have questions (and hopefully some answers) though.

mike_decock

I was simply qualifying homosexuality and dwarfism as "traits" not trying to imply that they are "negative" traits. I'm all for diversity as well as choice.

-Mike...

Ensign Steve

Mike, Echidna, I agree (now) that dwarfism and homosexuality and deafness and a whole slew of other traits are not intrinsicly negative. However, I imagine the uneducated masses would have that same knee-jerk reaction like I initially did: Why have it if you can avoid it? I think a lot of parents who aren't prejudiced against people who are different would still take the option to "spare" their child from anything but a perfect life. They like diversity in the world, but would rather save their family the headache of having the same diversity in the home. I'm not saying everybody would be like that, just most people.

*shrug* Like I said, I'm still on the fence over whether that in itself would be a bad thing.

mike_decock

But that can still be viewed as a good thing. The "uneducated", "knee-jerking" folks who wouldn't want a homosexual child could opt not to have one. The child wouldn't have to go through the trauma of being raised by parents who are prejudiced against their sexual preference.

-Mike...

Ensign Steve

I agree that would be traumatic, but a lot of what makes us individuals is that which makes our parents nuts. For an extreme example: Imagine you had fundamentalist parents, and they could ensure before your birth that your brain would be hard-wired to need a god-belief. (okay, this would never happen on so many levels, but just pretend). Would you rather be an atheist? Or would you rather be spared the trauma of being an atheist raised by parents who are prejudiced against your beliefs (or lack thereof)?

I'm not looking for specific arguments against that one (good thing, too, because it is weak). It's just food for thought. This one always touches me personally because if my girlfriend's mom had the option, my girlfriend would have been born straight. Would she have been happier? Maybe. But she is damn happy now, and a unique individual who has been made strong by a shitty upbringing.

mike_decock

I'm sure children could still find things to drive their parents nuts, even if the screen out the "big ones" . I think driving parents nuts is a genetic necessity.

I was raised by Pentacostal missionaries and I've grown up to be an atheist. Calling it "traumatic" is a bit extreme, but it is applicable. I'm a fairly happy person now that I've stopped trying to "make myself believe" but the first 30 years of my life would have been much easier and happier if I was hard-wired to believe what my parents do. I'll probably carry the pain and regret of "breaking their hearts" for the rest of my life and they'll probably die believing that I'm going to hell. As much as I love them, that's a hard thing to deal with. I guess I would rather be spared the trauma and live an ignorantly happy existence.

You have a good point there. Those who have come out of traumatic childhoods often turn out to be the strongest and most deeply appreciative of their life afterwards. Even looking at society as a whole, those individuals who were made strong by a shitty upbringing often turn out to be great contributors to society in the long run.

It's a tough issue. I think as long as it's the choice of the individual, rather than government-mandated, I'm fine with it.

-Mike...

Ensign Steve

LOL, that about sums up my feeling on all of these issues (abortion, etc.). Whether we should have a right to do something is almost never an issue for me. People should have the right to do whatever the hell they want. My question is always whether people should do the thing. And that boils down to personal choice.

I'm suddenly reminded of that episode of Voyager where Belana didn't want her baby to be born Klingon, so she tried to get the doctor to alter its DNA. Don't get me started! LOL!