lpetrich

I don't think that tendencies to be wicked are reasonably called "original sin", because "sin" is more usually thought of as what one does.

As if there is anything in the construction of our bodies that suggests a former indestructible state. Which is absolute hooey. Unless, of course, one invokes miracles. Which, however, can explain anything, and thus, really nothing.

One counterargument is that one-celled organisms have a way of avoiding death: multiplying by dividing. But they are not only destructible, they are far away in an evolutionary sense. But among multicellular organisms, deliberate death is common -- and sustained by kin selection. If one's death helps those that share one's genes, then that self-destructive tendency will be perpetuated. Multicellularity itself is a very clear example; most cells will die as a result of only a few contributing to the next generation.

Which makes the Christian God implicitly complicit by omission.

In the New Testament, yes, but there is no hint of that in Genesis itself. Furthermore, anthropomorphized talking animals are typical of fairy tales.

From something that the Christian God was ultimately responsible for -- as some theologians have been willing to claim.

Doesn't seem very worthy of a Ruler of the Universe to me -- whatever happened to miracles like those in the Bible?

Over much of which they'd have to profess the official sect of their place or get into deep trouble.

However, there are serious problems with those arguments, like whether they are really valid and what kind of entity would they demonstrate the existence of.The first-cause argument is fallacious; if everything must have a cause, then there cannot be a "First Cause", since that would be causeless.

The necessary-vs.-contingent argument is a non sequitur; an entity being contingent does not mean that it has to have been caused.

However, a designer could easily create a chaostic Universe if it so chooses, and the kind of designer demonstrated by this argument seems rather distant to be theologically satisfactory, except if one believes something like 18th-cy. Deism.

I suspect that such a Universe would not even allow us to exist. But something undesigned can still be orderly. Are crystals designed? Does a little elf place all the molecules into their proper place in a crystal?

ax

I think God has revealed himself through many religions, I think there is only ONE way to him also, the bible has hinted of it, so has the koran etc etc... It seems to me, that some of the O.T. prophecies or whatever were just political moves. A brief summery of the xian idea of God. You will have to read the verses for yourselves.
David and Bathsheba (2 sam 11).Instead of David suffering, it is th child, for 7 aggonizing days!
(2sam 12: 15,18), this is in violation of deu 24:16 and deu 22:22. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, this is the SAME god you worship today.Even livestock must suffer for the actions of one man (josh 7:23). Truly God works in mysterious ways acc to Ex 4:23-27, due 20:12-20. He also commands cannibalism ( deu 28:53-55).
As far as I'm concerned, stringing up a horse is very cruel ( josh 11:6).Moral? check out jud 21:10-12 ( how, in the heat of battle they could tell who were the virgins in beyond me).1 sam 15: 3,7-8-saul see's through the immorality of the commandment and saves some things(vs 9), then God gets upset(vs 10-11). Hos 13:16 offer's a graphic scene of God's righteous anger. There are many more examples though. But it is not just the O.T. that is wrong, but the N.T. also. 1 example is jesus leading a good example for the followers in:
matt 5:22,matt 23:17, luke 12:20-practice what you preach indeed. The flooding of the world is a ridiculess notion for a loving and compassionate God, the picture the bible paints is that of a vindictive, spitefull asshole, who is like a father leaving the room, expecting his kids to behave, and on his return smashes the furniture 'cause they've behaved badly! The thought of salvation is stupid also-I was choosen from the foundation of the world? Predestined? It was not me who chose god, but vice versa??.If god has choosen me to be with him, then behind the scenes I had no free will to choose him, how is that fair? What about heaven? no tears? no sorrow?= our feeling will be repressed. Is there free will in heaven? Can we sin in heaven-like satan? or will we be robots for christ? There are many other faults in the bible eg: jesus prayed that he wouldn't have to be crucified?? and he's supposed to be in a state of omniscience?-I think not. God created the world by an act of his own free will, and yet he chose to make his perfect creation(man) corrupt almost from the start, if he didn't, then the fall was out of his hands, but the only way he could correct this corruption, was to send his son to be killed for all mankind? But in short- whats better, to bow to hitler to save your ass? or to deny him and burn? answer?: the god of the bible does not exsist as the bible portrays him. To believe in god, in my experience so far, seems emotionally understandable, but not intellectually coherant. To understand, or to prove god is silly. He is a piece of music, and we are trying to translate it into words, and it just cannot be done. I've figured it out, don't think the knowledge you currently posses is changless,absolute trith! Avoid being narrow minded and bound to present views. I think now that I've realized my struggle with the bible is like a war, and if I'm at war with my parents, family, society, and the church, there is probably a war going on inside if me also!! Maybe this is the "spirit of god" that is talked about, after all, the fruits of the spirit(of god) shows a lot of peacefull attributes. I think, (for xians) the only way to make the holy spirit TRULY present in our lives and the church, is to practice what jesus lived and taught! My question to all the xians out there is- Do you have the desire to discover what God really has to say? Jesus IS resurrected, through our actions, our beliefs-not only in him, but what he's given us to live by. I think god IS every where, he is matter, he is emotion, he is sound etc.. To listen to the voice of God is easy! next time you're looking at the clouds, or listening to the rain, focus on it and you WILL hear the voice of God !!!

Tercel

I know: I'm half-way through it already.

I think I mentioned to Toto that I do not agree with everything Nomad argues.

I read the whole thread. It looks to me like his main intention was to get you to answer the honest questions he raised, whereas you seemed to be more concerned at winning the argument. To be fair, you did win the argument -such as it was- and I think Nomad's points were pretty silly.

I think you overestimate your victory here. Layman's point was that Islam is rabidly Monotheistic, which you only confirmed with evidence when trying to argue against him.

But not all the howlers on that thread are by Nomad. You wrote: "Christianity is polytheistic. It worships a triune god, Satan, and lesser powers such as angels and saints."
And subsequently you and Rodahi made fools of yourselves defending that statement.

The thread is Nomad discussing a subject he knows almost nothing about in an effort to learn more from you guys. I can sympathise with that because I have done it myself in the past.
Vintage Nomad is where he is kicking your ass on matters of Biblical Criticism.

Tercel

Evolution accounts for our ability to operate on a macro level of interaction with the universe. However the micro level interaction and understanding of modern science is hardly a direct result of evolution. It would seem entirely possible for the universe to be stable at a macro level, yet entirely incomprehensible to us at a micro level.
The concern of evolution is that we can live adequately in the world such as it is. The concern of science is to discover how the world such as it is actually works and to understand and describe those workings. I don't see how evolution suggests we should be able to do science.

philechat

ax:

You seem to venture into the mystic idea, especially one that has close association with oriental religions. "God is everywhere" (pantheism) is one advocated in some forms of hinduism/paganism, and is different from the Christian concept, which holds creation and the creator seperate.

In my opinion these people are at least honest with themselves. Instead of rehashing all the hackneyed ideas abused by the theologians, the mystics are genuinely interested in finding their own truth. Though I sometimes disagree with them I have a lot of respect for them, as they are able to discard the "social club" religions seen in our days and look for God elsewhere.

Wish you great luck in your philosophical journey! You will not regret the short suffering accompanying deconversion since you are already more awakened than most people .

Tercel

I was thinking of interpretation by theologians.

Consider some contingent event A. To say A is contingent is to say that it could have been otherwise. eg instead of A, there could have possibly occured B or C where one and only one of A, B or C can occur. Clearly there must be some sort of deciding factor which results in the occurance of A over the equally possible occurance of B or C.
I don't know what you mean by "caused" when you say a contingent event does not need a cause. All I mean by "cause" in regard to this argument is the deciding factor which I would call "the cause of A".

Tercel

That's a purely Calvinist teaching. None of the rest of Christianity eg Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Arminian Protestants etc accept it.

There are various positions held on this one.

ManM

"Can we sin in heaven?"

Do you desire to harm others?

ax

I do not desire to harm others, what I mean is: In the perfect state of heaven, satan sinned. I think we will be able to also. Surely we cannot govern God's will? I believe that God's will shall go on no matter what I do, or what others do also. The bible states in MANY places (you should know your bible people) that God pre chose, predestined etc us, he knows the future, he knows what is going to happen. I think jesus taught morality more than anything, it seems to be obvious that the gospel authors re-wrote some things after jesus' death, eg: only one gospel records the whole "undead" thing with the bodies of the dead wandering around the city, is it not wonderful that the 3 other gospel authors forgot about it? personaly I think that if jesus could see what has become of his teachings today he'd turn in his grave!!( )

lpetrich

That's an irrelevant comment, O ManM, and I'm sure that I don't need to remind you of that.

That is an important question about what Heaven or Paradise or whatever it is supposed to be. Does anyone there ever commit a sin in it? Do inhabitants of that place have free will?

If that place's inhabitants have free will, is it free will limited by a psychological inability to commit sins? Or would such an inability totally destroy free will?