Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Krieger · 04-05-2003, 04:42 PM

Well I think the Israeli working class, the Palestinians and all other oppressed groups in the region should rise up and overthrow the right-wing establishment and create a socialist state.

LymanLover · 04-05-2003, 05:22 PM

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Originally posted by marduck
�I agree with Sakpo, that is, the Israeli's living in Israel right now have a right to continue living there for the same reason that Americans have the right to live on ancient Native American territory. It would be an atrocity to forcibly expel modern Jews from their home.�

This seems OK by me, they won it like everyone else, but it doesn�t solve the problem of the Palestinians. Do they now have to go beat up some other group to get a place to live?

I don't want to be seen justifying the actions of Zionists in the forties. In fact I think they are despicable. But we must deal with historical realities...

As for the Palestinians, I think they should have a "right of return" to Israel like the farcical one the U.N. granted any Jew, anywhere in the 40's. And also financial reparations for the land that was lost in the forties. And also an establishment of a democratic political system decided upon by the Palestinian people...

John Hancock · 04-05-2003, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
The Zionist argument is bankrupt, any way you look at it. The Jews, Hebrews, Isrealites, whatever you want to call them, were not the original owners of the land. At the time it was "given" to them it was occupied by other people who should never have been evicted to make room for the Jews. If 20th century Jews wanted a "homeland" they should have chosen an unoccupied territory.

And whether or not the land was given to them as a result of the Bible's promise, the Old Testament is used repeatedly, particularly by fundies, as support for not only the existance of a Jewish state, but for the millions and millions of dollars the US pours into Isreal.

As for the Saami, I have no idea who they are so I can't answer your question.

Say guys I don't really have a dog in this fight but Grad on your basis the Arabs and their Islam have no place in Iran they invaded about 1400 years ago. The Orginal inhabitants were Persians who'd come from Russia and their religion was Zor Astroism (spelled something like that).

Martin Buber

Sakpo · 04-05-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Martin Buber
Say guys I don't really have a dog in this fight but Grad on your basis the Arabs and their Islam have no place in Iran they invaded about 1400 years ago. The Orginal inhabitants were Persians who'd come from Russia and their religion was Zor Astroism (spelled something like that).

Martin Buber

Actually, most Iranians are Persians, not Arabs, and really hate getting confused with Arabs. IIRC Iran was called "Persia" until their leader cut a deal to sell oil to the Nazis and the country became "Iran" (sounds like Aryan...so the Nazis could cook up some bogus racial history showing Persians to be a sub group of the Aryan race..."Iran" was not invented for this purpose, it was already in common use by many of the people of Iran and had been for a long time).

John Hancock · 04-05-2003, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakpo
Actually, most Iranians are Persians, not Arabs, and really hate getting confused with Arabs. IIRC Iran was called "Persia" until their leader cut a deal to sell oil to the Nazis and the country became "Iran" (sounds like Aryan...so the Nazis could cook up some bogus racial history showing Persians to be a sub group of the Aryan race..."Iran" was not invented for this purpose, it was already in common use by many of the people of Iran and had been for a long time).

Yeah! and the Persians (who use the Arabic Alpabet but pronounce it differently) Wanta know how come it's spelled Iran when it's pronounced by them as Eran. My Persian pal says "They oughta know what the name of the country they founded is.".

Martin

Evangelion · 04-05-2003, 11:45 PM

Sakpo -

Quote:

Huh? My entire post's point was that Israelis have a right to exist where they are, as do the Palestinians.

I know. I already agreed with that, remember?

My point is that the Palestinians want more than the mere "right to exist where they are." They're claiming that Israel is theirs.

I am saying that you would most likely not agree with this claim. Am I right?

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Your comparison to Chinese immigrants/ethnic Chinese would be laughable if it wasn't so horribly racist

*snip*

Please, spare me the dramatics. It's not playing on any "common racist idea." It's just an analogy.

Something tells me that I could have used any nationality on the face of the planet, and you'd still cry "Racist!" But how the hell am I supposed to make my point unless my analogy makes use of two different nationalities?

Think about it.

Quote:

As I said, my primary point was that the Israeli state has a right to exist in its current location.

*snip*

I already agreed with this.

I was simply pointing out that you've missed the other half of the problem - that the Palestinians are claiming this land as their own, and arguing that it should be given to them.

Evangelion · 04-06-2003, 12:14 AM

GSH -

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It was totally devoid of Jews before they took it by force from those who lived there.

Yep. Just like America, Australia and Great Britain before they were invaded by their current inhabitants. So there's obviously no problem here. You've just vindicated the Jewish claim to their land.

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Then, in the 20th century, the Western powers out of guilt gave it back to them

Sorry? What "guilt"? Did I miss something?

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and the Arabs were removed by force

Most of them fled to avoid the war (though I agree that some were forcibly expelled.) Meanwhile, the Arab nations which attacked Israel in 1948, made great promises to the fleeing Palestinians, offering them a share in the spoils after the (expected) defeat of Israel.

It is worth noting that the Palestinians who did flee, still have not received citizenship from the Arab nations into which they fled.

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and even now over fifty years later, the Jews continue to persecute the Palestinians with the full force of their military.

Yep. And I've already pointed out that I don't support this policy.

Quote:

As for the Saami, there would be no reason why I should know who they are. I looked them up, just out of curiosity. So I now know that they are the people who were once referred to as Lapps, which is now apparantly a pejoritive. I still don't know why I should be expected to know that.

I shouldn't assume so much.

Evangelion · 04-06-2003, 12:23 AM

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My source is not on line. It is "Competeing Claims to the Territory of Historical Palestine," John Quigley; Guild Practitioner, Vol.50, No. 2.

"Until the late nineteenth century, Palestine had a population that was one of the most stable on any piece of territiry in the world" (P. 76)Palestinians have been a presence in the disputed territory since the 4000 B.C.E. About 1000 B.C.E. a Hebrew state was established there, but "the Mediterranian coastal plain continued to be occupied by the Philistines, another Semitic people, from whom the name Palestine derives." (p. 77)

This fellow appears to believe that the title of "Palestinian" refers to a particular ethnic group with its own uniquely "Palestinian" language and its own uniquely "Palestinian" culture.

In fact, there is no such thing.

The "Palestinians" are simply Arabs who live in Palestine. They have no unique culture; they have no unique language; they have no unique history. They're just a bunch of Arab immigrants from Arab nations.

The title of "Palestinian" is geographical (not ethnic.) There was never a land called "Palestine", occupied by an ethnic group known as "Palestinians" with their own unique language and culture.

Remember, it was actually the Romans who first came up with the word "Palestine", which they subsequently slapped on the land of Israel.

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Both groups have legitimate claim, The issue is the establishment of Palestinian statehood.

One group has a legitimate claim to the land; the other is simply hoping to undermine that claim.

The establishment of Palestinian statehood is a complete non-issue, IMHO. It's great propaganda, but that's about all.

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Israel policy and subsequent actions under the Sharon regime are to subvert any possibility of this happening. Furthermore, the Bush regime has tacitly supported the Sharon regime.

Since the "Palestinians" never had any right to the land in the first place, I don't have a problem with the Israelis preventing them from stealing Jewish land for the invention of a "Palestinian" state.

RED DAVE · 04-06-2003, 01:33 AM

As an atheist, socialist Jew, I do not support the existence of a hegemonic Jewish state in the Middle East.

RED DAVE

Oresta · 04-06-2003, 04:27 AM

What's more, Iranians speak an Indo-European language, not Arabic.

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04-05-2003, 04:42 PM	#21
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	Well I think the Israeli working class, the Palestinians and all other oppressed groups in the region should rise up and overthrow the right-wing establishment and create a socialist state.

04-06-2003, 01:33 AM	#29
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	As an atheist, socialist Jew, I do not support the existence of a hegemonic Jewish state in the Middle East. RED DAVE

04-06-2003, 04:27 AM	#30
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	What's more, Iranians speak an Indo-European language, not Arabic.

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