Oolon Colluphid

Actually, to disagree with myself, or rather to clarify: there is a fundamental difference between finding out stuff, and what we do with the knowledge. What gets done with it should be open to public scrutiny and democratic control. But the knowledge itself is apolitical, it just is (and we need as much of it as possible in order to make the best decisions we can).

However, in this context, I suggest it’s impossible to categorise the actual people doing these things into an either/or dichotomy. Sure, engineers may not know much basic science, just enough to get by. Sure, 'scientists' may not know much about how to turn what they find into practicalities. But this is really no different from an ecologist not knowing much about the details of genetics. He may still be able to talk about gene flow in populations, without needing to know the actual sequences in question.

Oolon

Bill

My job is straight engineering. I "rack and stack" electronic boxes in order to accomplish a particular desired function. I deal with well-defined componants. To me, "research" means to do an Internet search for some "gap filling" technology (electronic box, etc.), like was said earlier in this thread.

I am not a scientist, and I have no pretensions to being one. Scientists deal in theory and engineers deal with practice. As was also said earlier, both disciplines are necessary, but only rarely do they need to communicate. And when communication is necessary, it is the scientist explaining the theory to the engineer so that the engineer can find the "gap filling" pieces needed to make a complete solution (product). Or, in the other direction, occasionally an engineer has to try to explain to a scientist exactly how to use that neat-o new product which the scientist has acquired to play with in his or her lab.....

== Bill

ohwilleke

I agree that there is a difference between Engineers and scientists. Engineers deal with what we do know, and scientists spend most of their time dealing with what we don't know. Engineers have to do something useful. Scientists are free to do something with no practical applications.

Many engineers have sufficient training to do some science, but few do, in fact, do science.

[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

MadMordigan

I am a mechanical designer, neither Engineer nor Scientist. From my perspective, there is a huge overlap between those designations. In many cases, the difference between any particular engineer/scientist is less than the difference between two engineers or two scientists from different fields.

Tristan Scott

A scientist is walking in the park and his engineer friend rides up on a new bike. The scientist asks, "Hey where'd you get that swell bike?" The engineer explains, "It was strange. I was walking along and this georgeous girl rides up on this bike, parks it, takes off all her clothes and tells me I can have whatever I want." The scientist ponders a minute and says, "Yeah, I don't suppose the clothes would have fit you."

never been there

It's an interesting question. Scientists deal full-time in the scientific method - ask a question, guess at an answer, test the guess with an experiment.

Engineers, in many situations (especially manufacturing with a process that doesn't quite &#@^*$& work), apply the scientific method as ONE of the tools at their disposal. If it works, great, otherwise they resort to heuristics (i.e. the SWAG - Scientific Wild-Ass Guess), Ouija boards, appeal to authority and all sorts of stuff that would give Aristotle conniptions.

Dealing in the Black Arts tends to give engineers a much firmer grasp of the subtleties of epistemology that scientists have.

Now, the above should be qualified by stating that's I'm a chemical engineer, so I don't have the luxury of theories that actually work like electricals have.

alek0

I think it is wrong to automatically label biologists, chemists, physicists etc. as scientists and electrical, mechanical etc. engineers as engineers. There is less difference between electrical engineer and physicist that physicist and biologist.

In my opinion, anyone who does scientific research is a scientist, regardless whether he/she is engineer by education. Electrical engineers for example are doing lots of research in the field of electronic and optoelectronic devices which also includes some fundamental principles. On the other hand, if someone gets a degree in physics, chemistry or biology and ends up teaching science in highschool or starts working for a company selling chemicals or scientific instruments or semiconductor substrates I would not consider him/her a scientist regardless whether his/her degree was in science or not.

Friar Bellows

It's an old one but here goes anyway (from memory):

An engineer, a physicist, and a mathematician are placed in seperate rooms. Each room contains a bucket and a water supply.

The engineer's room is set on fire. Immediately, the engineer rushes over to the bucket, fills it to the brim with water and empties the bucket of water over the flames. The fire has been put out, but the room is quite wet from all the excess water.

The physicist's room is set on fire. The physicist sits down and ruminates a short while on the problem. Then he goes over to the bucket, fills it to a precise level, empties the bucket over the flames, and the last drop of water puts out the last flame.

The mathematician's room is set on fire. The mathematician sits down and ruminates on the problem. After a short while, the mathematician exclaims, "Yes! This problem has a solution!" The mathematician is subsequently burnt to death.

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />

Bill

HA!

Having worked for decades in electronic engineering (mostly computers, but I did some "signal processing" stuff that got me into radio theory), I can state that while the theories do "actually work," they aren't "perfect" and the electronic types can spend days, weeks, or even months performing the same sorts of non-scientific methods you describe, above. We even had a special name for that process: "Easter egging." Somebody who was "Easter egging" was engagning in "heuristics (i.e. the SWAG - Scientific Wild-Ass Guess), Ouija boards, appeal to authority and all sorts of stuff that would give Aristotle conniptions," as you say, above.

== Bill

goody2shoes

I quit,

Call yourself what you like. I just suggest that you let engineers who think that they are engineers instead of scientists to continue to believe so.

That's what started this dumb discussion anyhow.

My apologies if I offended you.

Goody.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />