rainbow walking

Hi GP,
According to Revelation Jesus Christ has the keys to hell and death. Not that any of this junk is true, but for the sake of argument, wouldn't that sort of make Him the jailer?

Tercel

True, but others have simply been trying to understand what was meant. Is this meant to be taken symbolically, as some sort of parable, as so many other sayings of Jesus clearly are? Or did Jesus mean it literally? If he meant it literally, was he dictating absolute truth via knowledge given to him by God, or was he teaching his own human interpretation of the Old Testament scriptures?
Is the "eternal" punishment referred to nonexistence, some sort of pain, or something else all together?

The standard fundamentalist answers I've encountered to this has been either that the people in Hell torment themselves or God does it.

luvluv

I tend to believe that the people in Hell torment each other, but it is entirely possible to me that if Hell entails complete separation from God, and God is the source of all goodness, then being in Hell alone could be tormenting.

As I've argued elsewhere I think that people who live together in a place completely devoid of all goodness would soon degenerate into a sub-human state. That state could be torturous without any outside force imposing any torture on Hell's inhabitants. And is also conceivable that people deprived of any possibility of goodness would eventually begin to torment each other.

In such a scenario, any torment imposed by God would be extraneous.

Also, much of the torment might not only be physical (if it is physical at al) it could be the torment of regret, or of anger, resentment, lust, sadism, etc.

I also don't know that there is a "jailer" or that a jailer is necessary. The Christian belief is that Hell is a place that the unsaved choose to go by rejecting God. They would rather "reign in hell than serve in heaven". They don't want anything to do with God, so God sends them to a place where they won't have to deal with Him. As C.S. Lewis and others have said, the gates of hell are locked from the inside. As bad as hell is, those in it would rather suffer than submit.
I think this is why Jesus considered pride to be the worst sin. Those who are in Hell are there because they will not yield.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

case

Eliane Pagels' "Origin of Satan" deals with some of this, and is an excellent source regarding the changing meaning of Satan in Christianity. Frankly, I think of Satan as Hell's diplomat, nicely portrayed by Christopher Walken.

rainbow walking

If God really wants people to freely choose to love him why doesn't he stand on his own merits? Why the additional caveat of hell to coerce the fearful?

hal9000

(All of Hell one big party, while God is surrounded by the tiresome "Faithful" singing "How Great Thou Art" for the billionth time.)


Sounds to me like God is in hell!

wordsmyth

Actually, Christopher Walken portrayed Gabriel not Satan.

southernhybrid

posted by luvluv

Well that's a relief. Most of the unsaved that I know are much nicer people than the saved that I grew up with and have met in my adult life. How can intelligent people actually believe all this total nonsense? I'll never understand it.

More from luvluv

As an atheist, I have no regret, no anger, no resentment, and I always thought that lust was kind of a fun thing. I've known plenty of Xians that were sadistic. I think the ones that tell the rest of us that we will be tortured in hell are pretty sadistic. They seem to enjoy it so much when they say it. I'm sure there are a few sadistic atheists but I've yet to meet one. Again, none of this makes any sense. God has never been very sensible though.

sighhswolf

Remember ..........Satan/lucifer speaks in the palace of hell called Pandemonium, he makes it clear that he would rather RULE in Hell, than be a SLAVE to god in HEAVEN.
Wolf

case

But he should have!