Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Unbeliever · 03-31-2003, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamWho
I don't think the statement, "Life doesn't have the property of meaning" is equivalent with the "Life is meaningless".

The first statement is an objective statement about the properties of Life in general and a statement about the category error of associating a meaning with life.

The second statement tends to be a personal statement of their feelings about their life.

Even though LIFE doesn't have the property of meaning doesn't mean that I personally don't have meaning in my life.

Correcting a category error is not equal to nihilism.

So the meaning in your life is what? Your goals, values, etc., right? If so, I agree that we can have a personal meaning (or purpose) in our lives, in that we can have personal goals and values, a meaning that we choose, not any meaning that is imposed on us from outside. In fact, this type of meaning would, it seems to me, be considered among the biological imperatives that we all must obey, for without goals and values we could not function as organisms or as a society. I don't know how this would apply to non-human organisms, though. Maybe they have a personal meaning commensurate with their lesser cognitive function? Or would they even be considered to have any personal meaning? It may well be that this meaning we so crave is a product of our societal mores, completely subjective, like justice. I'm still trying to flesh out my philosophy, but I'm taking nihilism as my basic premise. But, I suppose there are different definitions of nihilism, so the one I am using is the one stated in my previous post.

AdamWho · 03-31-2003, 08:56 PM

UB
So the meaning in your life is what? Your goals, values, etc., right? If so, I agree that we can have a personal meaning (or purpose) in our lives, in that we can have personal goals and values, a meaning that we choose, not any meaning that is imposed on us from outside.

AW
100% agree

UB
In fact, this type of meaning would, it seems to me, be considered among the biological imperatives that we all must obey, for without goals and values we could not function as organisms or as a society.

AW
I think we could function just fine but life would be lousy. "The unexamined life is not worth living"

UB
I don't know how this would apply to non-human organisms, though. Maybe they have a personal meaning commensurate with their lesser cognitive function? Or would they even be considered to have any personal meaning?

AW
Animals have meaning to theirs lives: Survival and procreate; these seem to fit with your biological imperative.

UB
It may well be that this meaning we so crave is a product of our societal mores, completely subjective, like justice. I'm still trying to flesh out my philosophy, but I'm taking nihilism as my basic premise.

AW
So I read the page you linked to, the given definition of nihilism is ok but it seems unnecessary. Isn't it just espousing a narrow form of rationalism?

BioBeing · 03-31-2003, 09:13 PM

Yeah I get post 42 in this thread! The true answer!!!

Edit - just noticed it was my 42nd post too...

Bumble Bee Tuna · 03-31-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markstake
As a child, somewhere in my pre-teen years, I was aware of deep philosophical conversations about the meaning of life that seemed to constantly plague "grown-ups."

At the time I knew, with a certainty, what the purpose of life was. I had no doubt in my mind, and didn't understand why grown-ups couldn't see what was so plainly obvious.

"The purpose of life," I thought to myself, "is to have fun."

And I did.

I miss that in myself. I want it back.

Still got it at the ripe age of almost 19...Why shouldn't the purpose of life be to have fun? That's MY purpose...

-B

Nowhere357 · 03-31-2003, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamWho
I don't think the statement, "Life doesn't have the property of meaning" is equivalent with the "Life is meaningless".

It took me awhile to understand this statement (clearly I'm no logician), and now I agree with it.

Loosely, consider clouds:
People can see castles in the clouds. (Life is not meaningless.)
There are no castles in the clouds. (Life does not have the property of meaning.)

Does this capture the idea? If so, then from this POV, assume for the moment that life DOES have the property of meaning. In terms of reality, what would this imply? (Other than there ARE castles in the clouds.

)

Is either position (life does not have the property of meaning, vs life has the property of meaning) falsifiable?

Good post, AW.

mhc · 03-31-2003, 09:42 PM

I don't so much think there has to be a meaning to life.
But I do think that life needs to have meaning.
We want to be able to find meaning in the things we do, with family, friends, work. That meaning will be very personal, that's what make it great. Anything that's really meaningful is *personally* meaningful. I mean, who cares about someone else's meaning? We can all learn from each other, but ultimately It's YOUR life!

AdamWho · 03-31-2003, 11:05 PM

Nowhere357: Your analogy is beautifully poetic and meaningful.

Unbeliever · 04-01-2003, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BioBeing
Yeah I get post 42 in this thread! The true answer!!!

Edit - just noticed it was my 42nd post too...

Wow, spooky!

Unbeliever · 04-01-2003, 11:06 AM

Quote:

originally posted by AdamWho:
So I read the page you linked to, the given definition of nihilism is ok but it seems unnecessary. Isn't it just espousing a narrow form of rationalism?

Well, AW, I'm not really sure exactly what the distinction is between the two. Maybe nihilism is just a more specific form of rationalism. Also, I want to let you know that I'm talking about "existential" nihilism, not the political form; passive, not active.

But I have a question: what is the definition of "meaning" in the context in which it is being discussed in this thread? I don't think the existence of personal "meaning", as we seem to be using it, is incompatible with nihilism, since nihilism doesn't deny (at least I don't think it does) personal meaning, as being goals and values.

AdamWho · 04-01-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

what is the definition of "meaning" in the context in which it is being discussed in this thread?

The definition of "meaning" as the logical connotation of a word or phrase seems adequate.

The meaning of something is just the "thing" that a word or concept refers to.

So to have meaning you need three things
1. a word
2. a concept the word refers to
3. a conciouness to connect to word to the concept, thereby creating meaning for the word.

Things which exist or don't exist called "Metaphysical primaries" by Rand; do not have meaning. They just exist or don't exist. Life, matter, energy are examples.

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03-31-2003, 08:56 PM	#42
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	UB So the meaning in your life is what? Your goals, values, etc., right? If so, I agree that we can have a personal meaning (or purpose) in our lives, in that we can have personal goals and values, a meaning that we choose, not any meaning that is imposed on us from outside. AW 100% agree UB In fact, this type of meaning would, it seems to me, be considered among the biological imperatives that we all must obey, for without goals and values we could not function as organisms or as a society. AW I think we could function just fine but life would be lousy. "The unexamined life is not worth living" UB I don't know how this would apply to non-human organisms, though. Maybe they have a personal meaning commensurate with their lesser cognitive function? Or would they even be considered to have any personal meaning? AW Animals have meaning to theirs lives: Survival and procreate; these seem to fit with your biological imperative. UB It may well be that this meaning we so crave is a product of our societal mores, completely subjective, like justice. I'm still trying to flesh out my philosophy, but I'm taking nihilism as my basic premise. AW So I read the page you linked to, the given definition of nihilism is ok but it seems unnecessary. Isn't it just espousing a narrow form of rationalism?

03-31-2003, 09:13 PM	#43
BioBeing Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 6,004	Yeah I get post 42 in this thread! The true answer!!! Edit - just noticed it was my 42nd post too...

03-31-2003, 09:42 PM	#46
mhc Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: CA Posts: 124	I don't so much think there has to be a meaning to life. But I do think that life needs to have meaning. We want to be able to find meaning in the things we do, with family, friends, work. That meaning will be very personal, that's what make it great. Anything that's really meaningful is personally meaningful. I mean, who cares about someone else's meaning? We can all learn from each other, but ultimately It's YOUR life!

03-31-2003, 11:05 PM	#47
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	Nowhere357: Your analogy is beautifully poetic and meaningful.

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