phillip millar

Hello Spenser,

Yes indeed. I think this may be why the doctrine of reprobation(held by some Puritans and still held in some 'Reformed' circles) developed.

Best Regards

Phillip

fiGit

I'm in the process of trying understand jazz, and I really liked the original argument.. I love learning new things like this, but I have a few questions..


"The Christian God is defined as a personal being...."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::

I don't think that's really universal... hard determinists don't really believe this if they believe in complete depravity in my understanding...




"According to Christians, personal beings have free will. "
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::

I don't think I've ever heard that proclaimed by hard determinists as well. They believe people don't have free will at all... which is basically what I'm leaning towards f I end up concluding ABSOLUTELY that God exists... but I don't think I'll ever come to an absolute decision... too many possibilities that I don't think I'll ever have the chance to consider


What was said by hinger though I think still is valid...

"If God created this universe..."
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Isn't it good to consider the "if's"? And if we consider THIS if...



"...then it is entirely plausible he exists outside of it, and indeed, outside of its constraints, space, time, etc. Thus, if God can exist in a place without time, then there is no decision making in that repsect."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::


Just a correction... "Thus, if God COULD exist in a place without time..." we haven't determined if he CAN exist yet.... and also, I don't calling the environment without time a 'place' is completely accurate... I mean, if there was an environment without time, maybe we should discuss how THAT would be possible. (?) I don't even know where to begin to start asking questions about a timeless environment... I don't even know if 'environment' is an accurate word.... lol


"Decisions have already been made as there is an inexistence of time."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::

I think that would almost make sense if you're assuming a place without time would have a constant effect of potential that... causes 'thought' or decisions continiously.... but if there was a single thought, there would've had to have been a second thought... there would've had to have been a FIRST then as well....

Too confusing for me

"It is my belief that the reason Biblical predictions and the like are so accurate"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::

wasn't a good idea to shift the discussion that way
=-D




"Even if you can imagine something as nonsensical as an intelligent mind existing outside of time (seemingly one thought following the next is a temporal process), that doesn't dismiss God from this argument."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::


I don't think he was trying to dismiss God.... but I liked Spenser's comment:


"If he can interact with the universe then he does it in time (our time so to speak), so if he knows the future in our universe, then he is powerless to change it therefore lacking free will, else if he changes it he never really knew the future here to begin with. In order for God to interact with our universe, he HAS to deal with time."
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::


Good argument, but if we consider the God of the bible he limits HIMSELF... cannot lie, cannot deny himself... Maybe God's a God with limits... but then how he exist in an environment without time? or be described as a limitless God, or a God who always was, always has been or always will be? Spenser's argument still stands, folks.

Spenser

Thank you fiGit...