Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AJ113 · 06-04-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
--Not going to get in this one because Sabine is doing a much better job than I could.

You sure have posted a lot for someone who is "not going to get in this one."

............I don't see how AJ gets from point A to point B as far as thinking that since I have admitted to irrationality in my core belief system--------I have somehow turned into an irrational individual in all ways.

You go for it, Rationalize BAC! Here's a match for that strawman...
Now show me where I said that you are an irrational individual in all ways.

Expliquez �a !!!---AJ

Analogy:
RBAC: I'm a rational guy!
AJ: Really, what are your religious beliefs?
RBAC: I'm a Christian - but I admit that my faith is totally irrational.
AJ: Then you're hardly a rational guy, are you?

You are starting to worry me.--AJ-----

Anyone who is as exposed as you are currently would feel the same way.

----- I wonder sometimes how I made it to age of 60 (with a 20 year career as a very competent and sometimes downright brilliant refrigeration technician) as irrational as I seem to be to you. The way you consider my intelligence, I wonder if I should even be walking around?

Wow, do you just make it up as you go along? Who said anything about intelligence?

AJ113 · 06-04-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Really ? without having any personal knowledge of whom BAC is in his daily life and how he makes his choices, you can actualy evaluate the level of overall rationality of an individual whose sole contact you have with is thru cyber means ? oh come on... coming from someone who demands a rational thought process....you just lost any credibility with me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Of course you are not an irrational individual in all ways.

Really ? without having any personal knowledge of whom BAC is in his daily life and how he makes his choices, you can actualy evaluate the level of overall rationality of an individual whose sole contact you have with is thru cyber means ? oh come on...

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Whether you be a theist or non theist or anything else, as long as your choices do not consist in hurting your neighbor, you fit my definition of a rational person.

Really ? without having any personal knowledge of whom BAC is in his daily life and how he makes his choices, you can actualy evaluate the level of overall rationality of an individual whose sole contact you have with is thru cyber means ? oh come on...

Rational BAC · 06-04-2003, 09:49 PM

Just ducking in real quickly to check how thread is going. Still on aol limited dial up. Unfortunately I have to work pretty much straight through the rest of this week. So will be sometime this weekend before can get seriously back to this on unlimited ISP.

Toodle loo and bonne chance.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 06-05-2003, 05:14 PM

A "rational" person would never admit that something they believed was irrational. Because, if that person were rational, they would not be able to stomach the idea that they held an irrational belief, and they would work to make sure they eliminated it. Perhaps an analogy would convince you?

Jim claims to be a "good" person. But every so often he does some bad things: He gets angry sometimes and has been known to start fights. They are pretty rare, however, and aside from that he is a friendly, compassionate person.

Is Jim good?

What if, when Jim claims to be a good person, you say "But you get into these fights, and that's bad"?
How does Jim respond?

If he's good, I think he would respond that getting in those fights was a mistake, and he was trying to stop fighting and change his behavior.
I would cease calling him "good" if he said "yeah, they're bad, but I do more good things than bad so I don't mind as long as I keep the balance more towards good".

I assume you can see exactly how this is analogous to RBAC. A rational person can have some irrationality to them, but they can only remain rational if they try to eliminate that irrationality in their lives. RBAC does not, in fact, he has no problems proclaiming that his faith is indeed irrational. Thus, RBAC is not a "rational person" as a whole even if he does use rationality in other aspects of his life.

I do like how you have completely changed the definition of the word "Rational", Sabine, so that to you it actually means "moral". That's interesting. I wish I could just make up definitions like that.

-B

Sabine Grant · 06-06-2003, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
Really ? without having any personal knowledge of whom BAC is in his daily life and how he makes his choices, you can actualy evaluate the level of overall rationality of an individual whose sole contact you have with is thru cyber means ? oh come on...

Really ? without having any personal knowledge of whom BAC is in his daily life and how he makes his choices, you can actualy evaluate the level of overall rationality of an individual whose sole contact you have with is thru cyber means ? oh come on...

A quick note before I go to work....I guess it is a matter of attitudes...... you prefer to assume the worst about Rational BAC. I prefer to adopt the benefit of the doubt. If your incline is to attribute negative notions to an individual you do not know personaly, mine is to aknowledge I do not have the knowledge of that individual and I should withold from attributing negative notions to that person. Frankly I'd rather be in my shoes than yours.

AJ113 · 06-06-2003, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
A quick note before I go to work....I guess it is a matter of attitudes...... you prefer to assume the worst about Rational BAC.

Really ? without having any personal knowledge of whom AJ113 is in his daily life and how he makes his choices, you can actualy evaluate the level of overall preferences of an individual whose sole contact you have with is thru cyber means ? oh come on...

I prefer to adopt the benefit of the doubt. If your incline is to attribute negative notions to an individual you do not know personaly, mine is to aknowledge I do not have the knowledge of that individual and I should withold from attributing negative notions to that person.

Sabine. The sheer duplicity of this statement is staggering. Do you realise that in the first line of your post you have committed the very act that you are accusing me of? You have attributed negative notions to me by stating that my preference is to assume the worst. Firstly, you are wrong. That is not my preference. Secondly, why did you not acknowledge that you have no knowledge of me, and withold yourself from attributing negative notions to me, as per your statement above?

Frankly I'd rather be in my shoes than yours.

Way to go, Sabine, having built your strawman with your erroneous appraisal of my preferences, knock it down with a patronising ad-hominem. That will deflect the atheists' attention away from the point, eh?

Nowhere357 · 06-06-2003, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113

RBAC may prefer to consider himself as rational, and indeed you may prefer to concede that possibility to him, but the fact is that he has admitted that his faith is irrational. This, IMO, disqualifies him from making any claims about being a rational individual.

So is it your claim that no rational person holds an irrational belief? Or is this unsupported opinion a mere irrational belief?

Bumble Bee Tuna · 06-06-2003, 08:22 AM

Sabine- You'll notice my post that explained exactly why RBAC should not be called "rational", not one assumption about his personal life needed to be made. But if I know you, you'll be wanting to ignore that post...

Nowhere:

Read my last post.

No, no rational person holds an irrational belief...and doesn't mind that. A rational person would never say 'yes, this belief X is irrational, but that's fine'. They would say "you're right, that is irrational. I guess I will have to reexamine that belief and change my mind". To apply this to our situation, if RBAC were a rational person, when we got him to admit his faith was irrational, he would then start to deconvert.

-B

Rational BAC · 06-06-2003, 11:23 AM

Me again.

Back still on slooow aol dial up. I am over on my aol $4.95 a month account, but so far it has only cost me an extra 71 cents. I can live with that. And will get unlimited Roadrunner started sometime this weekend.

Problem I have is ---I want to take this 'puter back to 2 years ago when it was brand new and take all the crap on there out, and then load Roadrunner. I think this very sometimes irrational and obstinate 'puter will probably straighten itself out if I do that.

In the meantime limited dial up aol is not breaking me just yet, so will go on for a while longer.

I still find it very strange how some of you cannot consider the possibility of a very rational individual, who spent 20 years in a rational, left brained field, and was a very competent, and sometimes brilliant technician at his trade.--------------could also be and admit to being IRRATIONAL and very legitimately so ---on the subject of basic Christianity.

Some things you just feel within your heart (not the pump). Have any of you ever fallen in love? Can you explain that in any kind of rational way? How many of you have children who you would die for in a completely irrational way?----------Just because you "love" them.

Have you all spent too much time looking through microscopes? Do you disallow anything "outside of the box"? If so, I feel very sorry for you.

I think that sometime in all of your lifetimes you may come to realize that "reality" is not just we can feel with our very limited senses----------and "truth" is not just what we can determine with our very limited intelligence.

There is a lot of other stuff out there. And by limiting yourselves so much ---you are missing out on so much.

Just my not so humble opinion.

mike_decock · 06-06-2003, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Some things you just feel within your heart (not the pump). Have any of you ever fallen in love? Can you explain that in any kind of rational way? How many of you have children who you would die for in a completely irrational way?----------Just because you "love" them.

Do you think pain is a supernatural sensation or is it completely natural? If you can conceive of it being natural, why can't you conceive of love being just as natural and no less real without attributing it to a supernatural cause.

Can you see how coupling and protectiveness of children serves an evolutionary function? Why is protectiveness of a loved one irrational? The desire to provide for others is essential to continuation of our species. We also gain personal satisfaction from those actions and relationships so it's not irrational or selfless at all.

Sure, a naturalistic explanation may sound dry and academically dispassionate, but you're missing the point. Whatever we may attribute those emotions to, they are no less real and no less powerful than attributing them to some inexplicable "supernatural" force.

-Mike...

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06-04-2003, 09:49 PM	#83
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Just ducking in real quickly to check how thread is going. Still on aol limited dial up. Unfortunately I have to work pretty much straight through the rest of this week. So will be sometime this weekend before can get seriously back to this on unlimited ISP. Toodle loo and bonne chance.

06-05-2003, 05:14 PM	#84
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	A "rational" person would never admit that something they believed was irrational. Because, if that person were rational, they would not be able to stomach the idea that they held an irrational belief, and they would work to make sure they eliminated it. Perhaps an analogy would convince you? Jim claims to be a "good" person. But every so often he does some bad things: He gets angry sometimes and has been known to start fights. They are pretty rare, however, and aside from that he is a friendly, compassionate person. Is Jim good? What if, when Jim claims to be a good person, you say "But you get into these fights, and that's bad"? How does Jim respond? If he's good, I think he would respond that getting in those fights was a mistake, and he was trying to stop fighting and change his behavior. I would cease calling him "good" if he said "yeah, they're bad, but I do more good things than bad so I don't mind as long as I keep the balance more towards good". I assume you can see exactly how this is analogous to RBAC. A rational person can have some irrationality to them, but they can only remain rational if they try to eliminate that irrationality in their lives. RBAC does not, in fact, he has no problems proclaiming that his faith is indeed irrational. Thus, RBAC is not a "rational person" as a whole even if he does use rationality in other aspects of his life. I do like how you have completely changed the definition of the word "Rational", Sabine, so that to you it actually means "moral". That's interesting. I wish I could just make up definitions like that. -B

06-06-2003, 08:22 AM	#88
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Sabine- You'll notice my post that explained exactly why RBAC should not be called "rational", not one assumption about his personal life needed to be made. But if I know you, you'll be wanting to ignore that post... Nowhere: Read my last post. No, no rational person holds an irrational belief...and doesn't mind that. A rational person would never say 'yes, this belief X is irrational, but that's fine'. They would say "you're right, that is irrational. I guess I will have to reexamine that belief and change my mind". To apply this to our situation, if RBAC were a rational person, when we got him to admit his faith was irrational, he would then start to deconvert. -B

06-06-2003, 11:23 AM	#89
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Me again. Back still on slooow aol dial up. I am over on my aol $4.95 a month account, but so far it has only cost me an extra 71 cents. I can live with that. And will get unlimited Roadrunner started sometime this weekend. Problem I have is ---I want to take this 'puter back to 2 years ago when it was brand new and take all the crap on there out, and then load Roadrunner. I think this very sometimes irrational and obstinate 'puter will probably straighten itself out if I do that. In the meantime limited dial up aol is not breaking me just yet, so will go on for a while longer. I still find it very strange how some of you cannot consider the possibility of a very rational individual, who spent 20 years in a rational, left brained field, and was a very competent, and sometimes brilliant technician at his trade.--------------could also be and admit to being IRRATIONAL and very legitimately so ---on the subject of basic Christianity. Some things you just feel within your heart (not the pump). Have any of you ever fallen in love? Can you explain that in any kind of rational way? How many of you have children who you would die for in a completely irrational way?----------Just because you "love" them. Have you all spent too much time looking through microscopes? Do you disallow anything "outside of the box"? If so, I feel very sorry for you. I think that sometime in all of your lifetimes you may come to realize that "reality" is not just we can feel with our very limited senses----------and "truth" is not just what we can determine with our very limited intelligence. There is a lot of other stuff out there. And by limiting yourselves so much ---you are missing out on so much. Just my not so humble opinion.

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