Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CaptainDave · 08-27-2002, 03:03 PM

Geez!

Truth really is stranger (and scarier) than fiction.

Buffman · 08-27-2002, 03:55 PM

I bet you never heard much about this in school. It was part of the negative atmosphere created by those laws. Though it was political-economic in nature, it isn't difficult to guess how such legislation could be used against any minority.

<a href="http://www.clements.umich.edu/Photos/HK/Jerome.html" target="_blank">http://www.clements.umich.edu/Photos/HK/Jerome.html</a>

<a href="http://digital.library.arizona.edu/bisbee/" target="_blank">http://digital.library.arizona.edu/bisbee/</a>

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]

Layman · 08-27-2002, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corso:
[QB]Imagine the year is 2010. The religious right now controls the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court. They have enough power to pass any law they want and even amend the Constitution if they choose to. If this actually happened I would assume the following would occur:

1) abortion would be outlawed. No exceptions.

I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger.

Quote:

2) hard core pornography in any form would be banned.

Probably so, yet I suspect the Republic would survive this.

Quote:

3) all public schools would replace the teaching of evolution with �creation science�

Most advocates I know want "side-by-side" teaching.

Quote:

4) the death penalty would be expanded to cover crimes like rape and drug trafficking

I have no problem expanding the death penalty to aggravated rape, but I haven't heard too many Christains fixated on expanding it to mere drug trafficking.

Quote:

5) xtian schools, charities and other organizations would receive taxpayer funding

This is already happening.

Quote:

6) I would have to move to Canada ASAP

I don't know you well enough to say this is a good or bad development.

lpetrich · 08-27-2002, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Corso:
1) abortion would be outlawed. No exceptions.
Layman:
I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger.

And how would that be judged?

And will women have to take regular pregnancy tests in order to tell whether they had gotten abortions? I'm not joking; Nicolae Ceausescu's regime in Romania was strongly anti-abortion -- and had done exactly that.

Quote:

Corso:
2) hard core pornography in any form would be banned.
Layman:
Probably so, yet I suspect the Republic would survive this.

Actually, a fundie theocracy would interpret "hard-core pornography" so broadly as to outlaw anything they consider even remotely sexually suggestive; I wonder what medical textbooks will be permitted to show under such a regime. And I wonder how exposed women will be allowed to be.

Quote:

Corso:
3) all public schools would replace the teaching of evolution with “creation science”
Layman:
Most advocates I know want "side-by-side" teaching.

With the discussion slanted to make evolution look like some evil fraud, of course. And the same with old-earthism, and perhaps also Solar-System heliocentrism.

Quote:

Corso:
4) the death penalty would be expanded to cover crimes like rape and drug trafficking
Layman:
I have no problem expanding the death penalty to aggravated rape, but I haven't heard too many Christains fixated on expanding it to mere drug trafficking.

Pure complacency. An autocratic regime needs enemies in order to justify its staying in power; a fundie theocracy would have no trouble finding lots of "enemies of God" to execute.

Quote:

Corso:
5) xtian schools, charities and other organizations would receive taxpayer funding
Layman:
This is already happening.

And under a fundie theocracy, only fundies will get any money -- and only those which believe in what the government considers "True Christianity". Imagine a Southern-Baptist theocracy deciding that Pentecostals are not True Christians because their speaking in tongues is demonic possession.

Layman · 08-27-2002, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
[QB]And how would that be judged?

And will women have to take regular pregnancy tests in order to tell whether they had gotten abortions? I'm not joking; Nicolae Ceausescu's regime in Romania was strongly anti-abortion -- and had done exactly that.

Well, Ceausescu's regime was not a Christian theocracy. Nor do I think that religious right influence (or "control" so long as its democratic) would result in anything of the sort. We had anti-abortion laws in this country for most of its existence, and none of them even approached the nightmare you raise

Quote:

Actually, a fundie theocracy would interpret "hard-core pornography" so broadly as to
outlaw anything they consider even remotely sexually suggestive; I wonder what medical textbooks will be permitted to show under such a regime. And I wonder how exposed women will be allowed to be.

Well, any theocracy is going to be problematic. But I thought the issue was if the religious right gained influence over all three branches of government. If we are going to assume the worst about our political opponent and envision their most fanatical members as what would be the norm, any group would scare me.

You guys are just catering to each others' fears.

Quote:

With the discussion slanted to make evolution look like some evil fraud, of course. And the same with old-earthism, and perhaps also Solar-System heliocentrism.

Nah, probably half of conservative Christians I know are old-earthers. Besides, the Feds. have little to do with education. These issues would be fought out at the local and state levels.

Quote:

Pure complacency. An autocratic regime needs enemies in order to justify its staying in
power; a fundie theocracy would have no trouble finding lots of "enemies of God" to execute.

Neither would an atheistic dictatorship. What's your point? Shoot. I've seen skeptics on this site claim that teaching kids are child abuse. Does that mean if we get an atheist government you are going to steal our kids away?

Same sort of scare mongering.

Quote:

And under a fundie theocracy, only fundies will get any money -- and only those which believe in what the government considers "True Christianity". Imagine a Southern-Baptist theocracy deciding that Pentecostals are not True Christians because their speaking in tongues is demonic possession.

Well, like I said, I wouldn't want to live under any theocracy, including one purportedly run by people of my religion.

The idea that 12 million Baptists could form a theocracy all by themselves is ridiculous. But yes, if we let our imaginations and prejudices run amock, we can all think of scary things about each other.

As for Baptists, I'm a Charismatic and most of my friends growing up with So.Bapts. who I got along great with.

ybnormal · 08-27-2002, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corso:
Imagine the year is 2010.

The religious right now controls the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court.

They have enough power to pass any law they want and even amend the Constitution if they choose to.

If this actually happened...

How soon we all forget, huh? Don't mean to pop your what-if, Corso, cause it's still very important stuff, but the situation you describe was actually in effect from 1/20/01 thru 5/24/01.

Had this continued thru today, and but for political happenstance it would, most of these folks around here saying, "I don't think it will ever happen", would maybe be saying something different on this thread today.

Thank ?god for Jim Jeffords.

Buffman · 08-27-2002, 08:10 PM

Layman

Though I will readily admit that not every URL below has a specific applicability to the subject under which I have placed it, I believe that it is their collective reading that exposes the intolerant atmosphere being created by the unenlightened, overly zealous, Christians that is cause for so much concern on the part of enlightened Christians , religious believers of other sects, and the assortment of Freethinkers that you find here. (And this is merely a quick, overview, response to a far more insidious and malignant use of faith beliefs to undermine a pluralistic democracy based on a federal republic form of government.)

ABORTION

I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/209390.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/209390.stm</a>

<a href="http://www.operationrescue.org/" target="_blank">http://www.operationrescue.org/</a>

<a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_rico.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_rico.htm</a>

PORNOGRAPHY/GAMBLING

Probably so, yet I suspect the Republic would survive this.

<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/05/07/anti.porn.lobby.idg/" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/05/07/anti.porn.lobby.idg/</a>

<a href="http://www.ccofwa.org/links.htm#Pro-Life" target="_blank">http://www.ccofwa.org/links.htm#Pro-Life</a>

[b]CREATIONISM/INTELLIGENT DESIGN ---EVOLUTION

Most advocates I know want "side-by-side" teaching.

<a href="http://www7.nationalacademies.org/evolution/Statements_From_the_NAS.html" target="_blank">http://www7.nationalacademies.org/evolution/Statements_From_the_NAS.html</a>

<a href="http://christianity.about.com/cs/creationism/" target="_blank">http://christianity.about.com/cs/creationism/</a>

<a href="http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98/app-a.html" target="_blank">http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98/app-a.html</a>

DEATH PENALTY

I have no problem expanding the death penalty to aggravated rape, but I haven't heard too many Christains fixated on expanding it to mere drug trafficking.

Exodus 20:13 & Deut 5:17

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston3.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston3.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/cr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/cr.htm</a>

TAXPAYER FINANCING OF RELIGION

This is already happening.

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/faith.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/faith.htm</a>

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd3.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd3.htm</a>

<a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/uwood.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/uwood.htm</a>

I don't know you well enough to say this is a good or bad development.

FUNNY! We all need a sense of humor when discussing the supernatural.

>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>

ybnormal

Jim Jeffords...Rah! Rah! Rah!

Oresta · 08-28-2002, 02:43 PM

Layman:
I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger.

Layman, a pregnant woman is not a mother. She is a pregnant woman. I am old enough to have had an illegal abortion. I know whereof I speak when I say that every time a woman chooses to illegally abort, her life is in danger. To outlaw abortion is to put the lives and health of women in jeopardy who make that choice.

[Edited for the typos I made because, I confess, I'm pissed.]

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]

lpetrich · 08-28-2002, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Layman:
... We had anti-abortion laws in this country for most of its existence, and none of them even approached the nightmare you raise

So you are proud of how wimpy our enforcement of them has been?

Quote:

LP:
With the discussion slanted to make evolution look like some evil fraud, of course. And the same with old-earthism, and perhaps also Solar-System heliocentrism.
Layman:
Nah, probably half of conservative Christians I know are old-earthers. Besides, the Feds. have little to do with education. These issues would be fought out at the local and state levels.

However, a Federal-level theocracy will very likely want states and localities to do its bidding; it may come to power promising "states' rights", but I fully expect it to throw away states' rights whenever it is expedient to do so.

Quote:

Layman:
... The idea that 12 million Baptists could form a theocracy all by themselves is ridiculous. ...

It only takes a small dedicated group of people to take over, as many revolutionaries have proven time and time again. And I'm sure that they will look the other way at each other's peculiarities if they want to take over -- afterwards is a different story.

Mark_Chid · 08-28-2002, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oresta:
Layman:
I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger.

Layman, a pregnant woman is not a mother. She is a pregnant woman. I am old enough to have had an illegal abortion. I know whereof I speak when I say that every time a woman chooses to illegally abort, her life is in danger. To outlaw abortion is to put the lives and health of women in jeopardy who make that choice.

[Edited for the typos I made because, I confess, I'm pissed.]

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]

A pregnant women is the mother of the unborn child. I'm pro-choice but I also anti redefining the English language to make abortion more palatable!

I believe abortion is unpleasant and undesirable, but I also believe that it is far more harmful to ban it than to allow it. I believe any woman stupid enough to require more than 2 abortions in her life is a contemptible idiot who should get herself sterilised, but I don't advocate in any way this being compulsory or enforcable.

Women who screw around, don't use contraception, get pregnant then abort are not doing a good thing, but not everything thats immoral is illegal - indeed only 2 of the 10 Commandments are enforcable by law! (murder & theft, plus false witness if you only count perjury & slander)

Whether a thing should be illegal is a function of its social cost, not its personal morality.

08-27-2002, 03:55 PM	#42
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	I bet you never heard much about this in school. It was part of the negative atmosphere created by those laws. Though it was political-economic in nature, it isn't difficult to guess how such legislation could be used against any minority. <a href="http://www.clements.umich.edu/Photos/HK/Jerome.html" target="_blank">http://www.clements.umich.edu/Photos/HK/Jerome.html</a> <a href="http://digital.library.arizona.edu/bisbee/" target="_blank">http://digital.library.arizona.edu/bisbee/</a> [ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

08-28-2002, 02:43 PM	#48
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	Layman: I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger. Layman, a pregnant woman is not a mother. She is a pregnant woman. I am old enough to have had an illegal abortion. I know whereof I speak when I say that every time a woman chooses to illegally abort, her life is in danger. To outlaw abortion is to put the lives and health of women in jeopardy who make that choice. [Edited for the typos I made because, I confess, I'm pissed.] [ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Oresta ]</p>

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08-27-2002, 03:03 PM	#41
CaptainDave Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Keys Posts: 119	Geez! Truth really is stranger (and scarier) than fiction.

08-27-2002, 08:10 PM	#47
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Layman Though I will readily admit that not every URL below has a specific applicability to the subject under which I have placed it, I believe that it is their collective reading that exposes the intolerant atmosphere being created by the unenlightened, overly zealous, Christians that is cause for so much concern on the part of enlightened Christians , religious believers of other sects, and the assortment of Freethinkers that you find here. (And this is merely a quick, overview, response to a far more insidious and malignant use of faith beliefs to undermine a pluralistic democracy based on a federal republic form of government.) ABORTION I suspect you are wrong on this one. Most of my pro-life friends make an except when the mother's life is in danger. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/209390.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/209390.stm</a> <a href="http://www.operationrescue.org/" target="_blank">http://www.operationrescue.org/</a> <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_rico.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_rico.htm</a> PORNOGRAPHY/GAMBLING Probably so, yet I suspect the Republic would survive this. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm" target="_blank">http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/01/29/statues.htm</a> <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/05/07/anti.porn.lobby.idg/" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/internet/05/07/anti.porn.lobby.idg/</a> <a href="http://www.ccofwa.org/links.htm#Pro-Life" target="_blank">http://www.ccofwa.org/links.htm#Pro-Life</a> [b]CREATIONISM/INTELLIGENT DESIGN ---EVOLUTION Most advocates I know want "side-by-side" teaching. <a href="http://www7.nationalacademies.org/evolution/Statements_From_the_NAS.html" target="_blank">http://www7.nationalacademies.org/evolution/Statements_From_the_NAS.html</a> <a href="http://christianity.about.com/cs/creationism/" target="_blank">http://christianity.about.com/cs/creationism/</a> <a href="http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98/app-a.html" target="_blank">http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98/app-a.html</a> DEATH PENALTY I have no problem expanding the death penalty to aggravated rape, but I haven't heard too many Christains fixated on expanding it to mere drug trafficking. Exodus 20:13 & Deut 5:17 <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston3.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston3.htm</a> <a href="http://www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/cr.htm" target="_blank">http://www.serve.com/thibodep/cr/cr.htm</a> TAXPAYER FINANCING OF RELIGION This is already happening. <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/faith.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/faith.htm</a> <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd3.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd3.htm</a> <a href="http://members.tripod.com/~candst/uwood.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/~candst/uwood.htm</a> I don't know you well enough to say this is a good or bad development. FUNNY! We all need a sense of humor when discussing the supernatural. >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>> ybnormal Jim Jeffords...Rah! Rah! Rah!

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