Kosh

Thanks Jest. It's amazing how many Xians have overlooked the book of However.

Carrie

Hi Christian,

I use the NIV Bible. I also have the NIV Exhaustive Concordance, which is quite exhausting, but very helpful in helping me find information. The NIV makes a distinction in terms between servant and slave.

The Hebrews were not slaves, but servants. (See Exodus 21). Servants were treated better. A Hebrew could take a FOREIGNER as a SLAVE, and beat them so badly that they couldn’t get up for two days! That is ruthless. Slaves were slaves for life, servants were for 6 years. And slaves were not slaves due to owing a debt. They were slaves just because the Hebrews WANTED slaves and God said they could have 'em. Big difference. Deuteronomy 20:14 says, “When you go up to attack a city, make it’s people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, ALL the people in it shall be subject to forced labor (children too), and shall work for you..This is how you are to treat the cities that are at a distance from you.”

I don’t know how the Israelites could have kept slaves in good conscience, since they used to be slaves too, by a country that considered them to be foreigners. Slavery is slavery, racial or not, and it’s always terrible. I’m sure the slaves thought it was terrible. Many were taken away from everything and everyone they’d ever known and loved, forced to do hard labor for life, and treated badly, with no hope of freedom or a nice life.

Read Leviticus 25: 39-46. It says, “If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. He is to be treated as a hired worker. He is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee, then he and his children are to be
released”...but ... “Your male and female SLAVES are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. They will become your property. You can will them to your children, and make them slaves FOR LIFE.” But you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.” (But I guess it was okay to rule over slaves ruthlessly).

And yes I have read Philemon. Pronounced “Fy-LEE-mun” but looks like “Phil-A-mon” to me. I was pronouncing it “Phil-A-mon” for years. Hee hee.

Anyway, Philemon doesn’t make much sense in light of Dt. 23:15 which says, “If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. Let him live among you wherever he likes.” However here’s what Paul did: While in prison, Paul met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the slave of a Christian. Onesimus was presumably owned by Philemon. Rather than give the slave sanctuary, Paul returned Onesimus to his owner. Paul said he did not want to do anything without Philemon’s consent. What about God’s consent? How can Paul be speaking the inspired word of God here? It seems the Paul wanted Onesimus because he loved him, and wanted him as a helper in the gospel. Paul
was NOT telling Philemon that slavery was wrong and therefore Onesimus should go free. Paul said that Philemon OWED HIM his very self. So since Philemon owed Paul, Paul thought he should get Onesimus. Paul looked at getting Onesimus as a favor (see verse 14). Paul finally hints that Philemon could have Onesimus back for good, though not as a slave, but better than a slave; as a dear brother. However Paul does not command this, because he wanted Philemon to give him the favor spontaneously, and not be forced.

Why not force Philemon? Paul had the authority. Paul admitted in vs. 8 that he could be bold and order Philemon to do what he ought (let Paul keep Onesimus), yet he appealed to Philemon on
the basis of love (for one another).

Wouldn’t it have been more loving to Onesimus if Paul ordered Philemon to free him? Wouldn’t it have been more loving for Paul to obey Dt. 23:15? Didn’t Paul, the scholar, know his Bible? Paul should have been bold, and should have done what he ought; and that was, condemn all slavery!

I’m sure the American Christians did use Philemon to preach against slavery, and they’d have had a point, but Christians (like Paul) should have strongly preached against slavery oh so long ago! And that was my point from the start. Paul didn’t really do much by his words in Philemon. Notice how long Christians owned slaves after that?

Any Christian owning a slave, ever, is ridiculous. “Do unto others as you would have done to you.” Would you want others to make you into a slave? I don’t think so. Do you want to
become my slave Christian? Would that be a nice thing for me to do to you?

Carrie

Yo Vinnie!

I very much appreciate your efforts (and Christian's) here. I’m sorry, but I’m very confused as well, and also find it hard to relate. I come from very conservative Christianity. I couldn’t understand a lot of what you wrote. I don’t get what you mean by salvation in this life vs. salvation after we die. I only care about what happens after I die. I like my life right now how it is.

You and Christian are two of the most interesting Christians I have ever “met,” besides my mom. My mom would be far more liberal in her beliefs than you. She believes that in all the world, one perfect example of humanity had to exist, so that’s Jesus. It has something to do with quantum physics. She thinks everyone on earth is saved, except for really evil people like Hitler. She says that all you have to do to be saved is accept Jesus, and you can do that after you die when Jesus appears to you. She also thinks that the Universe and God are the same thing, and the whole universe is consciousness. So humans are a way for the universe to experience itself. (Something like that). I agree with
her about the Universe part, but I don’t see how Jesus fits in with her theory either.

As far a “works salvation,” I believe that the Bible teaches we do need to DO things to be saved, but you still don’t EARN your salvation. It’s like a man telling his friend that he’ll give him his entire estate, and all he has to do to get it - is go pick a basket full of apples. The friend had to do something. He had to do what the man said. But picking a basket full of apples did not EARN him the estate. It was a gift, and the friend didn’t deserve it. It would be like going to the mailbox to get a Christmas present that arrived. You have to go to the mailbox to get the present, but that doesn’t make it any less of a gift.

Here’s the problem: In order for me to accept what you are saying, I not only have to come to believe the Bible, but I have to come to see your way of viewing Christianity, which is totally different from what I’ve been taught.
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Here’s the Christianity 101 that I’ve been taught:

Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus told his disciples, he has all the authority, so go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them (those who were made into followers) and teach them everything he taught them.

Acts 11:26 The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. That’s like saying Carrie was called Wife on the day she got married. Carrie and Wife are the same person. So Disciple and Christian are the same thing. Therefore, to see what a Christian is supposed to be, you have to look at the lives of the first disciples. So Disciple = Christian = Saved.

Mark 1:14-18 The calling of the FIRST disciples. Jesus said, come follow me and I’ll make you fishers of men. Since they were fishermen, they’d no longer be fishing for fish, but for people. And they immediately went and followed Jesus. Their new purpose in life was to make disciples. So the purpose of a Christians life must also be to seek and save the lost. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, so his followers are to imitate him. Any Christian who does not make his purpose the purpose of Jesus, he will not be saved. I never understood this however, because many people in my church hardly ever shared their faith, but they were still said to be saved. Yet the church taught that you must share your faith regularly in order to be a real Christian and saved. It’s part of giving up your life for Jesus.

Luke 9:23-26 Jesus said that his followers had to deny themselves and carry their cross daily, otherwise they couldn’t be a Christian. So they had to deny themselves of sin, and they had to suffer for him and carry his cause of saving the world. You have to lose your life for Jesus in order to save it.

Luke 14:25-33 Jesus said that if ANYONE comes to him and does not hate his family and his life (meaning love them a lot less than God), then they cannot be his disciple. And before you decide to follow Jesus, you have to consider the cost to make sure you
can finish what you started. Since you can’t beat God, you have to ask him for terms of peace. The terms of peace are that you give up EVERYTHING for God. If you don’t give up everything, you can’t be a disciple of Jesus, meaning you can’t be a Christian, so
you can’t be saved.

Luke 11:1-4 Pray and have a personal daily relationship with God, just like Jesus did.

John 13:34 Love one another like Jesus loved. That’s how people will know you are a disciple of Jesus.

Matthew 28:18-20 To become a disciple, you have to be made into one. You have to be taught and know what you are getting into. You have to know what it means to be a disciple before you get baptized. Only people who know what it is to follow Jesus, and have been doing it, can be baptized.

My old church believes that you have to be baptized in water in order to be saved. When you are baptized you get the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is a mark that identifies you as a Christian, so God’s wrath passes over you if you have the holy spirit.

Also, you are supposed to keep on going to church because Paul said, “Do not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encourage one another daily, so no one will be hardened by sin.”

They believe that “Love for God is to obey his commands” (John 14:15 and 1 John 5:3)

My old church also teaches that you can loose your salvation. If you turn away and decide not to follow Jesus anymore, then you won’t be saved. Or if you live a lukewarm Christian life, you won’t be saved.
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So, maybe you think the way I have been taught is wrong. A lot of other Christian churches think the Church of Christ is too works oriented. Yet the book of James seems to support works as well as belief. At the time when I was a Christian, this all made
sense to me from the scriptures. I really believed that my church had it right, and most other churches did not. I believed that all the people who simply “prayed Jesus into their heart” and lived good but easy Christian lives, were damned. So I went out and tried to save them and teach them the right way. And as you can imagine, that was hard. People who already believed in Jesus just wanted to believe that all they had to do was believe
and not do the really bad things like sleep around or whatever.

What pisses me off is that “God” would allow for so many different teachings to be out there. It’s really tough to figure out which is the “right way” to believe. It’s not clear. And all the stuff that you said is also not clear to me. It’s just way too complicated to be a Christian. The belief system is totally confusing. What the Catholic church teaches is confusing, what my church taught was confusing, what Charismatics teach is confusing, and what you said was confusing.

Now I did understand what you were saying about Jesus sacrifice not being necessary, but good, to show us the gravity of our sin. But wasn’t it Heb. 9:22 that said, “WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD, THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS?” So it was not just good, but actually necessary for some reason. I'm sure Christian can enlighten us on that.

Also, I think it is bogus that gratitude to God for his love and salvation will bring about righteousness and good works. I have seen no evidence of that in most Christians. Take my mom for example: She is grateful for God’s love and forgiveness, but she sins it up and doesn’t worry about it. She doesn’t think it’s wrong to smoke pot, get an abortion, get drunk, etc. And she is certainly not going to go out there and share her faith, ever.
Most Christians don’t do jack squat for Jesus, except go to church, if that. If it were true that love for and gratitude to God = Change, then all the Christians who love God and are grateful would be changed.

Galatians 5:19-24 says that the acts of the sinful nature are obvious, and we are warned that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. The acts of the sinful nature include sexual immorality: does that include sex before marriage? My church says yes. Impurity: does that include masturbation? My church says yes. Debauchery: I’ve been taught that sitting around watching TV all the time is debauchery. Idolatry: even
loving your boyfriend more than God can be idolatry. Witchcraft: said to include the use of drugs. Hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage. Selfish ambition: caring more about your own goals than the goals of God, and having more concern for yourself than others. Disensions, factions, and envy. Drunkenness, orgies. And the like: anything like any of the above.

So how many Christians live like this? Many. For example, my grandpa was a Christian, and he just watched TV in all his spare time, beat my grandma, had fits of rage all the time, got drunk, smoked pot. And he did not display most of the fruits of the spirit
below.

“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.... Those who belong to Christ have crucified the sinful nature with it’s passions and desires.” So in one sense, it sounds like the Spirit just turns you into a person that is loving and joyful, etc., but at the same time, this scripture makes it sounds like righteousness comes from purposefully crucifying your sin. So I think it’s
saying that if you deny yourself, and pick up your cross (to crucify sin) then the Spirit will bring about good things. But first you have to put and end to the sin. You repent, because God said so.

Even if a person loves God, that does not mean the person is
automatically going to want to be good and not have fits of rage whenever they are mad for example. That’s why it’s called denying yourself. You have to WORK at it. It’s not easy, and it doesn’t happen just because you love God and are so grateful. My grandpa did have some change, in that he got a little nicer over the years, but that he was far from having crucified his sinful nature. So is my grandpa in heaven?

This is not to say that Christians who sin cannot be saved. (I’m arguing here as if I believe in Christianity). You’re going to sin no matter what, and some more than others, due to weaknesses like depression, etc. But, each person can try hard to follow Jesus. God knows our hearts, and who is trying and who is not. Problem is, many Christians don’t try that hard at all. They just say, “oh well, God will forgive me,” and that’s why Paul had to preach against using salvation as a license for immorality. The believers were not automatically changed, but they had to work at it, and some were working at it more than others. The books of Corinthians are all about trying to get the believers to repent
and quit doing all the bad stuff. They were warned to repent, so they needed to do it.

Now look at Revelation 3:2 - it says, “I have not found your DEEDS complete in the sight of my God. Remember what you have heard. Obey it and repent. Otherwise I will come like a thief, and you will not know what time I will come to you. Yet you have a FEW people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for THEY are worthy.” And there are many more similar scriptures.

So I very much believe in works and faith. And I think the works come from your own effort. Otherwise it wouldn’t be so tough to be righteous. Everyone is grateful for salvation when they think they don’t have to do much to get it, but many Christians are not grateful because they know they DO have to do stuff, because Jesus said so. Neither person changes much, and I would bet that the one TOLD to obey is the one that does.

When I was in college, a Baptist lady came to my door and told me about Jesus. She said that all men have sinned and don’t deserve heaven, but heaven is a free gift, and anyone can be forgiven and go to heaven. All I had to do was say a prayer. And so I did. I was so happy that I cried, and I went in my room and signed my name on the little line in the booklet she gave me that said something like, “Today, I Carrie, have become a member of
the family of God and from this day on I am saved.” And you know how I lived? I slept around, stole, smoked pot, got drunk, lied a lot, etc. No change at all. It was not until I met a girl from the Church of Christ who told me what it meant to be a follower of Jesus that I actually repented. And then I was not all that grateful. I thought it sucked that most people were not going to heaven.

So that’s all for now. Whew, that was a long one. So was yours. Dang Vinnie, how do you have so much free time like me?

Christian

Woman,

While you are exercising that common sense and logic that God gave you you might want to check out what a strawman fallacy is, and how to avoid making them.

I plainly stated that I didn't have the answer, but "that said" there were a couple of mitigating circumstances I wanted to point out.

I was not at all attempting to justify the existence of slavery in ancient Israel. You may have assumed that from the points I made, but that was a false assumption.

"Slavery is bad, I don't know why God permitted it, but at least here are a couple of reasons it might not have been as bad as you think." Is what I was saying.

"Slavery is bad, I don't know why God permitted it, but here are some reasons slavery is not bad." Would have been nonsensical.

I thought I had expressed myself adequately, but I'll try harder to make my overall point more clear in the future.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

JEST2ASK / Kosh,

I stand corrected. Only the Hebrew slaves were set free during the year of Jubilee. I must learn not to work from memory when posting on this forum.

Respectfully,

Christian

JEST2ASK

Both your points are in direct opposition to the passages in Leviticus ........

1 - The Children of Isreal were not to be slaves

2 - Those of other nations were to be slaves either through direct conquest or later purchase

3- Leviticus 44: And as your male and female slaves whom you have from the nations that are around you from them you may buy male and female slaves.(45) Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they begat in your land , and they shall become your property. (46) And you may take them as an **Inhertiance** for your children after you inherit them as a possesion they shall be your **permanent** slaves ....:banghead: :banghead:

Sorry just a little cranky .... Goodnight see you tomorrow .....

JEST2ASK

Carrie excellant post .... I will have to read and think more on Philemon ... somethings I did not know & context / questions you highlighted concerning Paul (his motives etc) and how it relates to modern Christians (in general not Christian in particular)

Christian

Carrie,

You are one of the more interesting atheists I have encountered. I don’t have much lunch break left, but let’s see how far I can get.

I agree with you on that point. There is a lot about how the Israelites acted that is hard to imagine. Maybe God’s point in choosing that nation was to show that He can work through anyone He chooses to.

I absolutely agree with this … sorry if that was not clear from the post. And there is plenty of scripture to support that. I was just pointing out that the dehumanization of a specific race was not part of slavery in Israel.

It is incredibly unlikely that Philemon did not free Onesimus. Paul was one of the original Apostles, which was basically the same thing as an Old Testament Prophet. His words would have been heeded as if they were God’s words. Philemon was the leader of the Colossian church which met in his home, so he probably received 2 letters from Paul that are now recognized as scripture – God’s words.

Back later ….

Respectfully,

Christian

Kosh

Bzzzzzzzzzzt! Wrong. Here we go again! Christian, I see that you are in South Korea. Are you Korean,and were you evangelized by missionaries, or are you just over there temporarily? Anyway, I don't know what you've been told, But Saul/Paul was NOT one of the original apostles. He wasn't one of the 12, nor was even the replacement for Judas. Paul never met Jesus, and didn't "convert" until a full 3 years after Jesus was allegedly crucified.

As to his status, he pretty much created that for himself after he hijacked the movement. There's plenty of reading in the II library on that.

Christian

tosses the red flag ...

I want an instant replay!

Paul was equal in authority to any of the 12. He was selected personally by Jesus to be an apostle – a distinction shared only by the 12. The first century church viewed Paul on the same level as the 12. He was very much one of the original apostles. In fact he was THE original apostle to the gentiles, which is a whole bunch of people. Most churches in the first century would have likely listened to him OVER the 12.

Paul spoke with the authority of the handful of original apostles.

In case you doubt that, here is some scriptural support.


RO 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—

1CO 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2CO 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

GAL 1:1 Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 2 and all the brothers with me,

EPH 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

COL 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

1TI 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

2TI 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

TIT 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness-

RO 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles

1CO 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

2CO 12:11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing. 12 The things that mark an apostle--signs, wonders and miracles--were done among you with great perseverance. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

1 TIM 2:7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

2 TIM 1:11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

Respectfully,

Christian