leonarde

Previously posted:I simply don't get this:

1)Yes, we tilted (mostly) toward Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

2)But that hardly makes it (in ORIGINS anyway)a
"war-by-proxy" .

3)The current "crisis" as you put it, can be more properly laid at the feet of:

a)Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

b)the multilateralist composition of the coalition that Bush I put together to undo that invasion: ie since the coalition was only UN authorized to evict Iraq from Kuwait, the resulting half-measured situation has been allowed to fester (NOT in spite of the "international community" but because of it!)

c)(most ESPECIALLY) the refusal of Iraq to give up the very WMDs which it agreed to give up at the end of the Gulf War.

Iraq's growing flouting of the UN resolutions (17 in all!) can be attributed to its growing conviction that it had enough allies on the SC (France, Russia, China)that it need not obey those resolutions.

Well, I'm against "clumsy attempts" at anything but who isn't?? But the invasion of Kuwait happened precisely because S Hussein judged that the US wouldn't intervene NOT because of some botched intervention!!But there was no "crusade" against Iran! There was Iraq, fearful of a spread of that virulent form of religious fanaticism which Iran was trying to export. And there was help for Iraq from many countries including France by the way.

Cheers!

Nozferatu

If the jews got their way right now they would eliminate every single Palestinian there is. They have no remorse whatsoever.

What they learned from WWII was simply on how to screw others even further. They've been crying murder for the past 60 years while they've been getting away with murder for the same period of time. There've been races that have faced genocide LONG before the jews knew the word existed. Yet none have had the publicity and monetary and social benefits that they have had and are still having.

You still never answered my questions. How come UN resolutions placing demands on Israel have never been enforced? Nor are they even addressed anymore. Why? The palestinians are sub-human to them? They are dogs? How can you preach such an approach based on jewish goodwill while at the same time they are destroying a culture and innocent lives? So they have more of a right to live and breath the their Palestinian neighbours?

Because that's how it looks...but amazingly two things happen...1) people hardly know what's going on over there 2) anytime anything does happen the jews come out smelling like roses and everyone else is a bastard killer and terrorist.

An American citizen was bulldozed to death two days ago....you know where I read that information first? On a French online news link. What is the world coming to? So long as the Israelis murder an American citizen all can be forgiven?

I hope you see what I'm trying to say. Don't take the usual approach and demonize me because I say things that make sense and are true. Because that's what the jews do too so as to cover themselves...anyone taking a stance against them is a racist or anti-zionist. What a crock...fact is they've proven to the world through their own actions that they are perhaps the most racist people on this planet bar none.

A few jewish groups may of course oppose the "cause" and call for peace....as will any set of minority groups in any culture. But unfortunately they don't seem to have much impact do they.

garraty

Just wondering, did you intentionally write "lie" 20 times?

Give in to your premonition and look at these articles.


20 lies in 15 minutes

(links from cursor.org)

The Other Michael

I've got an old "This Modern World" cartoon strip by Tom Tomorrow in my cube. It dates back to when Bush the Elder was still in the White House.

All four panels show him in a head and shoulders shot. The caption in the first panel reads:

"Ladies and gentlemen - the President of the United States"

In the panels GHWB says:

Good evening.

Lies, lies, lies.

Self-serving hypocritical rhetoric . . .

. . . simplistic misrepresentations of facts . . .

. . . naked emotional appeals and more damned lies.

Thank you. Good night.




Sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it?

cheers,
Michael

Kamchatka

Yes, eerily familiar to Bush II, Putin (yesterday), Chirac on any given day, Saddam (every day), that cross between Don King and Miss Piggy in N. Korea (every time he opens his mouth), and then (of course) there is that paramount of honesty China . . . Sharon, any given Islamic country's leader.

Yes, they are all full of crap. And your point?

Amen-Moses

Actually:

", some permanent members of the Security Council have publicly announced they will veto any resolution that compels the disarmament of Iraq."

Is also false, what they said was they would veto any resolution that gave automatic recourse to military action. i.e the path they wanted to take was to set out targets for proof of compliance and then IF compliance was not proven by those targets the UN would meet to decide on the action to be taken.

So that was 21 (at least) in 15 minutes.

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses

And of course you can give examples of this I suppose!

Amen-Moses

thefugitivesaint

1st-
This is not exactly true. Hussein was counceled by the US and was explicitly told by the US that they would do nothing if he decided to invade Kuwait. This was, of course, a lie told to him by the 1st Bush administration as history shows that we did intervene after the invasion.

2nd-Jesse wrote:
But, it does matter and it matters a great deal. A small listing of US involvment in the middle east (found here ) and a working knowledge of our relationships with the dictators there (which continue to this very day) would reveal that the emotionally charged rhetoric of the current administration (which is really no different than any other one before it in this regard) bears no real validity to the factual claims it makes.

If the primary justification for invadind Iraq is the potential for that regime acquiring WMD than the very fact that we armed that country, gave its troops special training and supported its activities in that region should be added to the public debate thus putting some very necessery attention on US foreign policy and reducing the moralistic demonization being utilized in the general public debates taking place concering this so-called "war."

Knowing that certain acts have been committed historically would allow people to protect themselves from the empty justifications being made in the present and would help illuminate certain attitueds held in common in the ME by the populations there towards America (and thus by default Americans). THe past doesn't just go away but lives on with us in the present.

One of the justifications used by Bush in his address is tying the Iraqi regime with terrorism butthere is no real evidence for this claim . The appeal being made by the administration isn't based on facts but on purely contrived and fostered emotional responses. This kind of situation should scare those of us who see what is being done, why its being done and how its being done. Exposing the fact that the government outright lies to its populace should not be surprising but the continued support the population gives that very government should be.

My previous post was simply trying to establish the evident fact of this continued duplicity and how this duplicity is used to get the support of the citizens within the US. How can we assume the moral high ground given our involvment with the Iraqi regime? We cannot. Utilitarian motives be damned.

We armed them , we supported them and when this was exposed the government lied about it. (Hence the Iraq-contra scandal). Whether left or right wing in nature both sides agree that the government cannot be trusted and i stand by this skepticism. To few of us actually us it or admit it publically especially since debate is being shaped to make dissent seem like a terrorist act and laws are being passed to see that open criticism is criminalized. Sounds like paranoid BS but the fear expressed here is real and not that unrealistic in essence.

I have to go back to work but i still have a good deal more to rant about. Luckly i won't.
-theSaint

Kamchatka

Fortunately, I have a Russian interpreter living in my home and I subscribe to the Russian channel.

Putin and the Russian government's propaganda is far more permeating than America's.

He is suggesting to his people that Saddam's regime is a peaceful victim of naked aggression.

He repeatedly suggests that diplomacy and inspections were working.

He is already showing film of "innocent victims" of the "aggression," stating that America's government and military is out of control.


I don't need an interpreter for "Charade" because he has spent so much time attempting to influence American opinion through speeches and interviews.

He continually suggests that France's position is humanitarian as it relates to Iraq. BULLSHIT.

He suggests that diplomacy was working. BULLSHIT.

He suggests that Iraq was cooperating. BULLSHIT.

France is only interested in France. Fair enough.

Now, France, admit it. Again, as I said in another thread that melted down, I won't hold my breath.

I could go on and on and on. The fact is everyone is pursuing their jealous interests. For the French and Russians to suggest they have no complicity in the loss of life in Iraq over the last three decades is BULLSHIT.

Bush is an especially easy target. I'm not interested in defending him or his administration.

But, the disgusting attempt by so many totally biased individuals to suggest that America is the problem as relates to Iraq is irresponsible and naive.

thefugitivesaint

We are all biased and America does possess a good degree of guilt for what is taking place. Like France we had our hands in everything that was going on in that country. We supported the regime and our last 14 years or so of dismissal towards it is merely a form of political power games. We are not there to remove the regime in power as much as we are there to secure a piece of land within the region which we can control and from there control "our" interests in the wider region.

You know this as much as i do Kamchatka. The worlds superpowers are fucking with the people there for their own benefits but it will be the "normal" citizens of each country that bears the weight of these actions, the retaliations from terrorist sects (religious/political) and the aftermaths of the wars that will be involved (or "military actions).

Do i blame my country for the situation in the Middle East? Yes, i do. Do i blame them as the sole party responsible for the situation there? Of course not. Do i think this war will help "us" in the long run? No. Our dependency on oil, on a car centered lifestyle and on a detrimental foreign policy has to end. That is my opinion and it is a baised one based on what i believe, how i feel and how i interpret the facts and variables involved. Hold me accountable for what i espouse as i will do the do the same to everyone who posts here.

thanx,
-theSaint