Henry-Finland

Three questions & two answers to a patriot or a nationalist:
1) You defend Your country and I defend mine. Does our interests "cross"?
- If You are a patriot, neither can't begin a war, because You are defending Your country boarders and I defend mine.
- If You are a nationalist and think that Your countries interests are where ever the capital of Your country goes. You will fight any fight and even die for these corporations, well, then You are a fool.

2) You see that Your country is balancing on a wire, Your country is put in a difficult position,... What do You do? Follow The Leader?
- If You are a patriot, You try to reach the "Storm Bell", which will alarm Your fellow citizens. And so do I, and thus my country (hopefully) will never be together, never go together with any country that threatens Your country in any way.
- If You are a nationalist, You will, even if You understand that Your Leader is not what You want, back him up in any weather, in any position.
If everything goes bad, You will explain: "I just followed orders".

3) If Your country..., No, if my country goes astray, what is Your best advise to me, what should I do for my country?
How should I prevent my country from being hostile to other countries, and as a result of this, how should I prevent hostility from other countries toward mine?
What should I do in order to never be a threat to Your family (who has never even dreamt about to hurt mine)?

What ever is Your answer, will You do the same, will You follow Your advise?


Henry

echidna

Henry, a year or more ago I raised a thread in MFP where I considered patriotism to be the morally equivalent of racism, that one has made an arbitrary decision to ally oneself with a nation in the case of patriotism, & with race or culture in the case of racism.

Anyone who needs to appeal to patriotism, has simply run out of good arguments for their cause.

AFAIC, patriotism is a very dirty word & I find it disappointing the number of times one hears it being invoked from the other side of the Pacific.

Henry-Finland

echidna, please give this thread.


Thank You beforehand

Henry

The Other Michael

Hello Henry,

This appears to be echidna's thread:

Please define the moral differences between patriotism and racism

cheers,
Michael

Henry-Finland

Thank You echidna and The Other Michael!

I read the thread about patriotism and racism, quite fast, but I think I got the essence.

Let me take Patriotism and Nationalism, because that is my "issue".

Patriotism comes from the latin word 'Patria'. It means fatherland (or homeland). Thus patriotism is about defending Your country, inside Your boarders. It has nothing to do with racism. It is more about when You make an oath to defend Your country, inside Your boarders, against any agressor.

Nationalism is when You think that Your nation is '�ber alles' = higher than the other nations, Your culture is superior to other cultures etc. It seem to me that nationalism is today the worst enemy of mankind, after that the so called 'communism' has only a role in some peoples' mind in in China, Cuba etc. and is a grotesque 'front' of a hyper-nationalistic country like North-Korea.
Nationalism in Russia, where I have now lived for 6 years, is the biggest problem for politicians that wants to change something, something toward western democracy.
Even Putin is not so radical at home, as he is in front of the western media. He simply can not steer the big ship Russia toward the western thinking as fast as he likes.

In USA nationalism is called patriotism by very propagandistic people. People that wants the US 'democracy' to reign everywhere, or more truthfully, the US to reign everywhere.
It is in reality nationalism that they propagandate.

My question in OP was, question 3), or was meant to be;
What should I do, if "the leader" of my country shows a tendency to be a "20% Saddam Hussein"?
(If I am a patriot and defend also the western democracy)

That (s)he is showing after coming to power, through an election or without, that (s)he is just a front for a group that in reality begins to reign in a 'totalirian' way.

About this question:
It is naturally a trap for the most red-necked red-necks.

Anyhow, if we are exporting our ideas, we should have the answer to this question.
So,
- Should I "go against Our Leader"? or should I stand behind him (and the guys behind the curtain)?
(If I am a patriot and defend also the western democracy)

- Should I start a revolutionary paper (a megaphone for dissidents of my country) or should I just "mind my own business"? Or should I be happy with what the Ministery of Truth tells me?
(If I am a patriot and defend also the western democracy)

What is Your opinion? and should it also be a part of Your policy as a citizen in Your country if You come to such a situation?

So what would You do if;
A small Adolf, Josef or Saddam fetching the power of Your country.
(If You are a patriot and defend also the western democracy).

Henry

fitzy

I agree, I find it alarming the amount of words like that being spewed out of government approved news outlets in America, (i.e. Fox News, a chief manager there is G.W.'s cousin). If any of you caught Andy Rooney last week he was talking about some of these words. "coalition of the willing" (us uk, bunch of bribed 3rd world african countries), Operation Iraqi freedom (more like Operation Pretend They Don't Hate Us). US media is becoming more of a biased propaganda machine, I'd rather watch Al Jazeera, I can't understand them.

echidna

Thanks for digging that up Michael, I�d given up on finding that again. Actually Henry, my point was only to equate racism with patriotism on a moral basis, that they both share an equivalent lack of moral justification.

There is a famous quote attributed to Edmund Burke �The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.�

(Actually as I discovered, his actual words were �When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.�, which in itself a fascinating case study into the twisting of historical quotations, but nonetheless I share the common understanding that the later �interpreted� version carries more value. More info : http://www.tartarus.org/~martin/essays/burkequote2.html )

But I�ve never lived under a Stalin or a Hitler, so I don�t know what I would do. In most liberal western democracies, governmental criticism is almost an institution unto itself, but in an authoritarian context, I would still like to think that I would voice my thoughts. But there are so many coercive pressures pushing one to �go with the flow� , I don�t know. Even with many active dissidents & subversives, neither Hitler nor Stalin were ever going to be toppled from within, such was their stranglehold on power.

I suppose personally speaking I would likely opt not to take the martyr�s role of overtly resisting the government (you list starting a dissident newspaper or openly standing against the government.) Really it depends on the harshness of the regime & from over here Putin still seems to be a long way from Stalin. But speaking my mind, even if carefully, yes I'd like to think I could still do that.

I can�t recall his name. Vladimir Zhiranovsky (Mad Vlad I think) a few years ago was touted as a legitimate contender to Putin. This seems not uncommon globally for around 10% of the electorate to fall in behind extreme nationalists from time to time & even Australia has suffered to an extent under One Nation, although I hope that time has passed. To use the Australian example, after their surprising electoral success under Pauline Hanson, One Nation has rapidly deteriorated as a legitimate political force, largely through public outcry, protest & campaigning by the majority, extremely concerned at the divisiveness which their existence was promoting.

Henry-Finland

Thank You fitzy and echidna!

fitzy says that we can't trust the (main)media. I think that this is quite true all over the world, depending on what issue is taken up.
I have been working with media, small papers etc. and I have always been interested in propaganda. How they do it and so on.

I saw a very good program in the Swedish TV about underground papers in USA. Unfortunately I did not write down the different names of these papers, so I can not find them in the net.
Anyhow, my theory is that if the Big Media is twisting the truth, lying now and then, the small papers has a place where they can grow (if they reveal the truth). When they grow enough the Big Media has to come nearer the truth again.

This means that the Big Media, some of it, is "finding the track" quite fast. Some are just hopless, like FOX seems to be.
If the rulers of a country begins to get influence in the Big Media, the clock of the country is some minutes to twelve.

Finland, Germany, and many other countries has had their "black moments", and in these countries the reactions against the control of media seem to be faster. I have no way to prove it but it seems to be that way.
Some 20 years ago, in Finland I begun to publish a small paper in a small community, about 3.000 households.
Before a local election I published what the parties said in their leaflets and also how they had voted in the local council for the last 10 years. You understand what effect it had for those who actually had voted against building of an hospital, kindergarten and so on.
The outcome was quite opposite to the "normal" outcome in other communities.

In Sweden I published a paper that concentrated on different cultures of people from other countries. It is a long story but the power even for a small paper is amazing. I could not believe it, before I really used some power in a question of (not) closing a kindergarten for different people; Finnish, South American, Jugoslavian etc.

I have to run now. I will come back some other day, to the question I actually made.

Henry

fitzy

I will further deviate from the original topic of patriotism for the moment and just reply to this qoute, in the US big cable media has the best approval ratings ever, because they can deliver the news in a timely fasion, but underground newspapers can still have a place, i hope. At my High school there is no underground newspaper but I am drawing up a first draft with a few of my coherts(DORK TERM, SORRY). It will mainly try to appeal to high schoolers, because of the word "underground", but i hope they'll read it and get interested. Opinions and philosiphy as applied to the news seems to be the only thing newspapers can report on at a national level which will be perfect for high school because that's what needs to get out. And that and only that will get the younger generation to realize what is going on in th US and the world, and that is how the revolution will get started.
-MORE ON THAT IN AN UPCOMING THREAD LOOK FOR IT!

Henry-Finland

fitzy wrote:
I do not know about the revolution, but:
- if there is a changing of power in Your country, as I think there is, that takes You nearer "1984", it is a patriotic thing to fight ignorance.
- the whole topic of this thread is how You fight for Your country against an inner threat.

To do that IS A PATRIOTIC THING TO DO.

fitzy, I am waiting for Your upcoming thread.

Btw. I am a little bit amazed about people speaking in another thread about patriotism as it would be nationalism, or like they both would be the same.
I do not have my dictonaries with me, I'm just writing on the road, visiting my country Finland, but to me patriotism means defending my country.
Defending my country from inner or outern threats.

Henry