Freethought & Rationalism Archive

saraja · 06-03-2003, 03:54 AM

In my opinion Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.

famous people are effected too.

"Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam
Hear his story as told him . . . read more
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm

Corgan Sow · 06-03-2003, 04:19 AM

Muslims might be misunderstood as "potential terrorists" but what I respect about them is, they're totally opposite fundy Christians.

Take my country for example. Constitution recognises Islam as official religion (therefore no church-state (let's call it mosque-state) seperation), our taxmoney goes to funding mosques (and so does funding temples and churches) and there is Islamic propaganda around. But no Muslim here, NONE ever, ever prothelyse to me at all. They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet. We don't have public Solat prayers. Evolution, although not widely taught, is not forbidden to be taught at schools. It is all opposite from what I hear about fundys in States.

and I emphasieze again; prothelysing is non-existent in Muslim community here. If you see a Muslim handling some kind of Jack Chick-like tracts to you, he can be even arrested for violating your beliefs!

keyser_soze · 06-03-2003, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corgan Sow
Muslims might be misunderstood as "potential terrorists" but what I respect about them is, they're totally opposite fundy Christians.

Take my country for example. Constitution recognises Islam as official religion (therefore no church-state (let's call it mosque-state) seperation), our taxmoney goes to funding mosques (and so does funding temples and churches) and there is Islamic propaganda around. But no Muslim here, NONE ever, ever prothelyse to me at all. They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet. We don't have public Solat prayers. Evolution, although not widely taught, is not forbidden to be taught at schools. It is all opposite from what I hear about fundys in States.

and I emphasieze again; prothelysing is non-existent in Muslim community here. If you see a Muslim handling some kind of Jack Chick-like tracts to you, he can be even arrested for violating your beliefs!

It only starts to get dangerous when a fundamentalist regime of islamic fundies get in power. Islam was more "user friendly" in many other countries as well, until sharia started getting dominant...and then you have the mass raping or killing of women and young girls because they walked down the road with a boy or didn't cover their heads. Never mistake it, any fundamentalist religion is dangerous. They are all a split second from destroying innocent lives. We just keep hoping that second doesn't happen here like it has in other parts of the world. "It's all well and good, until someone get's an eye put out."

sphinx wui · 06-03-2003, 11:47 AM

Saraga;

Until now you don�t mention your point of view about this issue!

You wrote
famous people are effected too.
"Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam
Hear his story as told him . . . read more

so what? If Madonna or Michael Jackson converted to Islam this gives a merit to it? Cat Stevens is an already famous Sultana freedman.

The same problems that exist in Christianity exist also in Islam starting from the lack of rational evidence to proof the existence of god, to their fairy tales that they call it holly books, if you want to laugh about the talking ass in the OT or the talking snake of genesis you have also to laugh about the talking ant in the Quran! May be Islam is more simple in theology than Christianity cause of its trinity stuff but still they share all the common criteria of BS.

You wrote,
. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.

And this is exactly why they got fucked up in the first place, Islam in its early days was a progressive force considering its time period but with time it became a burden for Muslims, how can you follow a book written 1400 years ago by the excuse that it was inspired by god!

Corgan sow wrote,

. But no Muslim here, NONE ever, ever prothelyse to me at all. They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet.

They don�t proselytize for other reasons, they consider it mental coercion, which is forbidden by Quran, and they think of it as an impolite behavior to go to other people and start to attack their religion and as long as information is available about Islam freely it is none of their business to convert people but they hate anybody who tries to do it for them like those two girls who got caught in Afghanistan preaching Christianity.

You wrote,
They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet.

No they do, may be not in front of you but true Muslims believe that non Muslims will rotten in hell forever.

lugotorix · 06-03-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by saraja

famous people are effected too.

"Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam
Hear his story as told him . . . read more
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm

You probably don't want to bring up Cat Stevens' name in any conversation with Americans. He pretty much an object of ridicule here. As Cat Stevens he was most famous for his song about world peace, Peace Train. After his conversion, he came out in favor of the fatwa against Salman Rushdie. He alienated his fans and made himself look like a flake to everyone.

lugotorix

Corgan Sow · 06-03-2003, 06:05 PM

No they do, may be not in front of you but true Muslims believe that non Muslims will rotten in hell forever.

Many Muslims here believe that non-Muslim theists will go to heaven by good works, but only to "low-grade" Heaven. True believers (Muslims) go to "High class" Heaven (1st to 3rd, I guess). It's true they also believe that infidels like us will definetely burn in hell. Which part in the Quran says on the contrary? Let them believe what they want; they believe non-Muslims burn in hell, I believe their religion is a piece of crock. Bottom point is...

BTW, these kind of Muslims only exist in my country and possibly only Turkey. So, I guess my views don't really represent the whole Muslim in perspective.

saraja · 06-03-2003, 11:32 PM

Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.

For quite some time Islam was thought of as some "Eastern" religion, but with the increasing number of Muslims living in the West, Islam is gradually being perceived as a global faith. Muslims are not thought of as strangers with unusual practices, but are being welcomed as part of the mosaic of life in the West. In many cases, Islam is not just viewed as an acceptable religion, but as a desired way of living.

Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely
[Qur'an 5:32]

One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic.
However, it should be noted that the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions. Therefore, the media�s labeling of those who are allegedly responsible for these actions as �Islamic Terrorists� and the linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur�an, is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Ibrahim Mosque, Hebron by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.
It is inconceivable that the religion of Islam, which takes its teachings from the noble Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad - peace be upon all of them - would ever teach terrorism or suicide missions. In reality, Islam not only condemns terrorism and suicide missions, but also prohibits them completely. Thus, many Muslim nations, organizations, and communities all around the world have condemned such actions, hoping never to see its like again. The yellow journalism of the media showing the views of a small group of Palestinians (mostly children), who have been terrorized for years, does not represent the true feelings of Muslims worldwide.
It is also unfortunate that harassment of various kinds (including shootings, beatings, stone throwing, robberies, vandalism, death threats and hate language) has occurred against innocent Muslims resident in the United States � the elderly, women and children alike. In addition, Islamic places of worship and Muslim owned businesses have now become the targets of some peoples� anger and ignorance, just as the American people had become the targets of the anger and ignorance of the perpetrators of the World Trade Center attacks. Such bigotry and hatred is inhumane and unjustified.
We denounce the killing of innocent civilians in the United States, just as we have patiently for many years denounced the killing of innocent civilians in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, India and other countries.
May God, Almighty, the One without any associates or partners in His Divinity, guide us all to the

Truth and spread peace throughout the earth. Ameen.

TomboyMom · 06-04-2003, 07:18 AM

the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic.
Sorry, Saraja, that no true Scotsman argument won't wash here. Terrorists who murder innocent people in the name of Allah, devout Muslims who pray daily, observe Ramadan, make a pilgrimage to Mecca, etc. are Muslims. You don't get to pick and choose who to include in Islam based on your interpretation of the religion. They certainly think they're Muslim, and that's good enough for me.
And Jim Jones was a Christian, whether was he did was considered Christian or not by other self-identified Christians, and Christianity should and does share responsibility for what he did.

Rene

Corgan Sow · 06-04-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by saraja
Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred.

For quite some time Islam was thought of as some "Eastern" religion, but with the increasing number of Muslims living in the West, Islam is gradually being perceived as a global faith. Muslims are not thought of as strangers with unusual practices, but are being welcomed as part of the mosaic of life in the West. In many cases, Islam is not just viewed as an acceptable religion, but as a desired way of living.

Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely
[Qur'an 5:32]

One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic.
However, it should be noted that the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions. Therefore, the media�s labeling of those who are allegedly responsible for these actions as �Islamic Terrorists� and the linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur�an, is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Ibrahim Mosque, Hebron by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.
It is inconceivable that the religion of Islam, which takes its teachings from the noble Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad - peace be upon all of them - would ever teach terrorism or suicide missions. In reality, Islam not only condemns terrorism and suicide missions, but also prohibits them completely. Thus, many Muslim nations, organizations, and communities all around the world have condemned such actions, hoping never to see its like again. The yellow journalism of the media showing the views of a small group of Palestinians (mostly children), who have been terrorized for years, does not represent the true feelings of Muslims worldwide.
It is also unfortunate that harassment of various kinds (including shootings, beatings, stone throwing, robberies, vandalism, death threats and hate language) has occurred against innocent Muslims resident in the United States � the elderly, women and children alike. In addition, Islamic places of worship and Muslim owned businesses have now become the targets of some peoples� anger and ignorance, just as the American people had become the targets of the anger and ignorance of the perpetrators of the World Trade Center attacks. Such bigotry and hatred is inhumane and unjustified.
We denounce the killing of innocent civilians in the United States, just as we have patiently for many years denounced the killing of innocent civilians in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, India and other countries.
May God, Almighty, the One without any associates or partners in His Divinity, guide us all to the

Truth and spread peace throughout the earth. Ameen.

While I really respect your views and interpretation of the Quran saraja, there are quotes in the Quran that contradicts each other, just like the Bible. There are verses of peace just like your quotes and others like;

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. It is not ye who slew them; it was God.
Surah 8:13-17.

Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. Surah 9:14

Well, it is these kind of contradictions which made us(Infidels) not convinced with the Quran in the first place.

However, I sympathise to you and your fellow followers because of the discrimination after 9/11. Why should only islam take the blame when Christianity was also responsible for centuries of violance against non-believers?

braces_for_impact · 06-04-2003, 12:43 PM

Because people are superstitious, gullible, lack critical thinking skills, and require a lot of socialization?

06-03-2003, 03:54 AM	#11
saraja Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: France Posts: 5	Famous people In my opinion Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred. famous people are effected too. "Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam Hear his story as told him . . . read more http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm

06-03-2003, 11:32 PM	#17
saraja Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: France Posts: 5	Why Is Islam Often Misunderstood? Islam is frequently misunderstood and may even seem exotic in some parts of today's world. Perhaps this is because religion no longer dominates everyday life in Western society; whereas, for Muslims, Islam is life. Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred. For quite some time Islam was thought of as some "Eastern" religion, but with the increasing number of Muslims living in the West, Islam is gradually being perceived as a global faith. Muslims are not thought of as strangers with unusual practices, but are being welcomed as part of the mosaic of life in the West. In many cases, Islam is not just viewed as an acceptable religion, but as a desired way of living. Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely [Qur'an 5:32] One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic. However, it should be noted that the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions. Therefore, the media�s labeling of those who are allegedly responsible for these actions as �Islamic Terrorists� and the linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur�an, is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Ibrahim Mosque, Hebron by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively. It is inconceivable that the religion of Islam, which takes its teachings from the noble Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad - peace be upon all of them - would ever teach terrorism or suicide missions. In reality, Islam not only condemns terrorism and suicide missions, but also prohibits them completely. Thus, many Muslim nations, organizations, and communities all around the world have condemned such actions, hoping never to see its like again. The yellow journalism of the media showing the views of a small group of Palestinians (mostly children), who have been terrorized for years, does not represent the true feelings of Muslims worldwide. It is also unfortunate that harassment of various kinds (including shootings, beatings, stone throwing, robberies, vandalism, death threats and hate language) has occurred against innocent Muslims resident in the United States � the elderly, women and children alike. In addition, Islamic places of worship and Muslim owned businesses have now become the targets of some peoples� anger and ignorance, just as the American people had become the targets of the anger and ignorance of the perpetrators of the World Trade Center attacks. Such bigotry and hatred is inhumane and unjustified. We denounce the killing of innocent civilians in the United States, just as we have patiently for many years denounced the killing of innocent civilians in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, India and other countries. May God, Almighty, the One without any associates or partners in His Divinity, guide us all to the Truth and spread peace throughout the earth. Ameen.

06-04-2003, 07:18 AM	#18
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	and no TRUE Scotsman... the inhumane and horrific events at the World Trade Center which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic. Sorry, Saraja, that no true Scotsman argument won't wash here. Terrorists who murder innocent people in the name of Allah, devout Muslims who pray daily, observe Ramadan, make a pilgrimage to Mecca, etc. are Muslims. You don't get to pick and choose who to include in Islam based on your interpretation of the religion. They certainly think they're Muslim, and that's good enough for me. And Jim Jones was a Christian, whether was he did was considered Christian or not by other self-identified Christians, and Christianity should and does share responsibility for what he did. Rene

06-04-2003, 12:43 PM	#20
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Why do you think Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America? Because people are superstitious, gullible, lack critical thinking skills, and require a lot of socialization?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-03-2003, 04:19 AM	#12
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	Muslims might be misunderstood as "potential terrorists" but what I respect about them is, they're totally opposite fundy Christians. Take my country for example. Constitution recognises Islam as official religion (therefore no church-state (let's call it mosque-state) seperation), our taxmoney goes to funding mosques (and so does funding temples and churches) and there is Islamic propaganda around. But no Muslim here, NONE ever, ever prothelyse to me at all. They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet. We don't have public Solat prayers. Evolution, although not widely taught, is not forbidden to be taught at schools. It is all opposite from what I hear about fundys in States. and I emphasieze again; prothelysing is non-existent in Muslim community here. If you see a Muslim handling some kind of Jack Chick-like tracts to you, he can be even arrested for violating your beliefs!

06-03-2003, 11:47 AM	#14
sphinx wui Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: egypt Posts: 253	Saraga; Until now you don�t mention your point of view about this issue! You wrote famous people are effected too. "Yusuf Islam" Former Jazz Singer "Cat Stevens" Came to Islam Hear his story as told him . . . read more so what? If Madonna or Michael Jackson converted to Islam this gives a merit to it? Cat Stevens is an already famous Sultana freedman. The same problems that exist in Christianity exist also in Islam starting from the lack of rational evidence to proof the existence of god, to their fairy tales that they call it holly books, if you want to laugh about the talking ass in the OT or the talking snake of genesis you have also to laugh about the talking ant in the Quran! May be Islam is more simple in theology than Christianity cause of its trinity stuff but still they share all the common criteria of BS. You wrote, . Muslims make no artificial division between the secular and the sacred. And this is exactly why they got fucked up in the first place, Islam in its early days was a progressive force considering its time period but with time it became a burden for Muslims, how can you follow a book written 1400 years ago by the excuse that it was inspired by god! Corgan sow wrote, . But no Muslim here, NONE ever, ever prothelyse to me at all. They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet. They don�t proselytize for other reasons, they consider it mental coercion, which is forbidden by Quran, and they think of it as an impolite behavior to go to other people and start to attack their religion and as long as information is available about Islam freely it is none of their business to convert people but they hate anybody who tries to do it for them like those two girls who got caught in Afghanistan preaching Christianity. You wrote, They don't condemn you to hell for not believing in Muhammad as Allah's prophet. No they do, may be not in front of you but true Muslims believe that non Muslims will rotten in hell forever.

06-03-2003, 06:05 PM	#16
Corgan Sow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 1,537	No they do, may be not in front of you but true Muslims believe that non Muslims will rotten in hell forever. Many Muslims here believe that non-Muslim theists will go to heaven by good works, but only to "low-grade" Heaven. True believers (Muslims) go to "High class" Heaven (1st to 3rd, I guess). It's true they also believe that infidels like us will definetely burn in hell. Which part in the Quran says on the contrary? Let them believe what they want; they believe non-Muslims burn in hell, I believe their religion is a piece of crock. Bottom point is... BTW, these kind of Muslims only exist in my country and possibly only Turkey. So, I guess my views don't really represent the whole Muslim in perspective.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.