Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RJS · 05-15-2002, 03:16 PM

This was a result of the Lord's command in Numbers 25: 4-5

Sci_Fidelity · 05-15-2002, 03:28 PM

There plenty of others.

And, why does an all-powerful being need weak humans to commit his/ her/ its murders?

AND WHY IS IT OK JUST BECAUSE THE "LORD" SAYS KILL SOMEONE????? How can you be sure YOUR god exists and not allah? Aren't the muslims just carrying out god's will????????

AJ113 · 05-15-2002, 03:30 PM

A theist's belief places life after earthly death as the major part of existance.

If life on earth involves suffering of any kind then that suffering is of minor considration to a theist when compared to the life that awaits each individual outside of existence on earth.

By comparison, a non-theist will consider life only in terms of time spent alive on earth. As such, instances of personal suffering for a non-theist have greater significance.

RJS · 05-15-2002, 04:33 PM

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There plenty of others.

I am asking for only one. The one you provided was not what I was asking for.

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And, why does an all-powerful being need weak humans to commit his/ her/ its murders?

I don't think He/She has to (as I mentioned at the opening, all 6 billion of us will die over the next 80 years - most wont involve "murders"). I would presume there is a reason for such action however.

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AND WHY IS IT OK JUST BECAUSE THE "LORD" SAYS KILL SOMEONE????? How can you be sure YOUR god exists and not allah? Aren't the muslims just carrying out god's will????????

I can be sure that the Muslim Allah does not exist just like you feel that no God exists.

ex-preacher · 05-15-2002, 04:52 PM

Wow. I turn my back for a few hours and this thread explodes. I'm so excited - this is my first thread to get beyond one page. I'd like to thank all the people who made this possible, especially RJS. Bless you! I'm the king of the web!

Now, to move on.

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Originally posted by RJS:
We know for certain that on average, over 200,000 people will die per day. We know that some will die of old age, some will be murdered, some will have cancer, etc. Some will die of heat stroke in India.

About 72,000 will starve to death. Many of those are Christians who read that part of the Bible -seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things [food, clothing] shall be yours. About 26,000 of those who starve each day are children.

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The problem you are running into is that you don't credit God with creating you - you have likely never humbled yourself before Him and thanked Him for all of your blessings.

You don't know much about me, do you. I would think me username would give it away, but perhaps it was too subtle?

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And part (or all) of your reasoning for not believing in God is that a Loving God would never let us die - either painfully or otherwise. You are too attached to this temporal existence.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. I have no problem with the reality and necessity of death. Christians are the ones who are so attached to living that they invented eternal life. My problem is with the whole notion of a good god who inflicts such needless and horrendous pain on his creatures, both human and animal.

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If you, for one moment, accept that God did create you, you might be able to rid yourself of your belief that earthly death is, in and of itself, a bad thing.

Straw man.

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It has been my experience, for what its worth, that athiests

It's atheists. Are Christains bad spellers or just rude (or both). Don't they teach you nothin in chrutch?

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that make arguments like you are making really want to believe in God, and will at some point turn their lives over to Him.

So watch out

HAHAHAHA. I have also noticed that Christians who make that statement are really wanting to abandon God and live in the real world. Watch out.

ex-preacher · 05-15-2002, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


All are sinners, including Christians. My point was intended to communicate that if the entire world population was a perfect follower of Christ, none of such evils would exist - something to strive for. And then I made the comment that because the life of Christ and His teachings are consistent with what is logical and moral to me, it is part of why I believe.

The reason I started this thread was to get people like you to deal with "natural evil." If everyone became a Christian, would there be no more heat waves, no more blizzards, no more floods, no more earthquakes, no more hurricanes, no more ticks or mosquitoes, no more influenza or malaria or smallpox? Isn't it odd that tornado alley is in the Bible Belt?

ex-preacher · 05-15-2002, 05:02 PM

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Originally posted by RJS:

c) that if the entire world somehow converted to be perfect Christian overnight, that there would be no more murder, rape, hate, etc.

This is off-topic, but . . .

How then to account for the fact that the incidence of rape, murder, divorce is lower in agnostic Britain and Japan than in "Christian America"?

Even more interesting is that fact that rape, murder and divorce are higher in Bible Belt states than in the secular Northwest and New England.

RJS · 05-15-2002, 05:03 PM

I only addressed man-made evils after one of your atheist/athiest friends (Kind Bud) brought up 9-11 first.

PS - I'm new here - I figured the ex-preacher thing was sarcasm, not to be taken literally. But hey, the good news is some would argue you might still be saved!

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

RJS · 05-15-2002, 05:06 PM

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How then to account for the fact that the incidence of rape, murder, divorce is lower in agnostic Britain and Japan than in "Christian America"?

Even more interesting is that fact that rape, murder and divorce are higher in Bible Belt states than in the secular Northwest and New England.

You are implying then that Perfect Christianity would involve rape - which is absurd. I am not sure your question even relates to my hypothesis.

If the perfect follower of Christ would not be a rapist, and if we were all followers of Christ, would it not follow that there would be no rape?

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

ex-preacher · 05-15-2002, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


I believe that temporary suffering can have a long-term positive benefit. Otherwise, we would never get a flu shot, would we?

And who created influenza, my friend? Do you thank God for that blessing? Are you aware that the influenza epidemic of 1918 killed more people than did World War I. Praise be. God did not create the flu shot. Indeed many Christians historically opposed vaccination as utterly contrary to God's will. That said that it was playing God. They also opposed Ben Franklin's scheme to use lightning rods. They said God used lightning to strike down certain people and who are we to interfere.

05-15-2002, 05:03 PM	#48
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	I only addressed man-made evils after one of your atheist/athiest friends (Kind Bud) brought up 9-11 first. PS - I'm new here - I figured the ex-preacher thing was sarcasm, not to be taken literally. But hey, the good news is some would argue you might still be saved! [ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

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05-15-2002, 03:16 PM	#41
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	This was a result of the Lord's command in Numbers 25: 4-5

05-15-2002, 03:28 PM	#42
Sci_Fidelity Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 595	There plenty of others. And, why does an all-powerful being need weak humans to commit his/ her/ its murders? AND WHY IS IT OK JUST BECAUSE THE "LORD" SAYS KILL SOMEONE????? How can you be sure YOUR god exists and not allah? Aren't the muslims just carrying out god's will????????

05-15-2002, 03:30 PM	#43
AJ113 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hull UK Posts: 854	A theist's belief places life after earthly death as the major part of existance. If life on earth involves suffering of any kind then that suffering is of minor considration to a theist when compared to the life that awaits each individual outside of existence on earth. By comparison, a non-theist will consider life only in terms of time spent alive on earth. As such, instances of personal suffering for a non-theist have greater significance.

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