Wayne Delia

OK, so the Bible can be understood, even by a child.

But Jesus says, "The condemnation is that they know the truth but they rather live in sin because they rather live to please the flesh and it's desires. They freely choose not to come to Christ and have their sins forgiven because their sin is more satisfying.

You're missing an end quote there, so it's difficult to figure out where Jesus's words end and yours begin. You've begged the question of how anyone can exercise a free choice given that God is supposedly omniscient - that's an argument you cannot win. But the bottom line, I guess, is that the message of the Gospel and the rest of the Bible is not as easy to understand as you think it is. If it was, there should be no problem in allegedly "freely" making the correct choice. Since one of the many defined "sins" is a failure to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, you've simply defined any non-Christian to be guilty of at least that particular sin, which is hardly persuasive.

But as for understanding scripture without being saved, it is confusing to them because they, not having the Spirit, can only think worldly and fleshly and have not the spirit of understanding in order to know the things of God, for those things are hid from them.

So, it can safely and correctly be said that if any unbeliever does not understand the scriptures, it is the Holy Spirit's fault, regardless of the reasons you gave for the thought processes of the faulty humans. I feel a lot better now that you've convinced me it's not my fault.

But the gospel is given for all to know and understand.

Which, as you stated, is intentionally confusing if the Holy Spirit slacks off on His assignment. In fact, the very existence of any non-Christians represents an objective failure of the Holy Spirit to provide that allegedly correct understanding of Christian scriptures. Considering that fully two-thirds of the world are not affiliated with Christianity, the Holy Spirit should be fired for incompetence.

WMD

WWSD

1st posted by BGiC

Question Is God "jealous?" Is he fair?

In the absence of EasternGate, for the present at least, I'll respond to one or two of the enquries. Wayne, you write:

quote:Meanwhile, we're discussing Exodus 20 and Exodus 34, in which God explicitly admits He's jealous. Why are you so afraid to address the actual issue?

EasternGate is not likely afraid, he's painting a bigger picture than you asked for, or perhaps, care to entertain. I referred you and others to a more focused reply to the notion of God as "jealous" before, and since I hesitate reinventing the wheel repeatedly, I'll reference the original response again:

"excreationist et al.,
I stumbled upon this thread on the "jealousy" of God

quote:
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Exodus 34:14 - "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." (NIV)
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and thought I'd mention that while a convenient caricature of God for the determined atheist, allowing God as "jealous", according to the 21st century American sense, is also bad exegesis. A word of caution, reading the aforementioned link may disturb your current notion--so you may want to consider the informed alternative, or not.

Ancient: Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, context.



I think this would make an excellent thread in BC&H where it would probably get the attention it deserves. Maybe you shouuld consider doing that?

Otherwise, isn't it funny that God let his message become so corrupted by continued mistranslations that we must bicker over it present day?

If I were an omnipotent being, I'd likely hire an editor that could get the proper translation across.

Sorry, IMO one sould need to do no exegesis in order to get to the truth behind such an "important" message.

Of course, I wager that you will claim that my predisposition makes me react in this way, and thus the argument becomes little more than an infinite loop and brings nothing to the table.

Have a nice day.

southernhybrid

According to Paul, God "has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the hearts of whomever he wills." ( Romans 9.18 ) Maybe you need to ask yourself what, exactly you are trying to accomplish here. It's probably god's will that we are all atheists.

Cross Examiner

WWSD,

God as "jealous," per our 21st century American understanding, is thoroughly refuted, as demonstrated in the preceding posts, by careful exegesis. While I'd love to rehash this all in BC&H I must prioritize my time and move on. Feel free to take the link to your overlords to see if they can debunk it. No doubt they have a vested interest and I wish them the best of luck.

God's word has been corrupted? Actually, the manuscript evidence is, in my opinion, one of the greatest proofs for the validity of the Bible. If you have been told otherwise, then you've been greatly deceived. Check here, here, or here. Especially interesting is the last link since the argument continues by contrasting the Bible to the Qur'an, showing the Bible to be an even greater communiqu� than suspected.

Just to whet your appetite for what you are about to witness to an even greater extent (read the links above), we have 5400 copies of NT manuscript with the earliest dating 25-50 years after completion of the original. The manuscripts deviate only 0.05% from each other with no doctrine called into question, whatsoever. The next best preserved and authenticated ancient writing is Homer's Iliad. We have a measly 643 manuscripts of the Iliad with the earliest dating 500 years after the original in which the texts deviate 5% from one to another. And this is considered the second best ancient writing? Not even a close second! Imagine the odds of that randomly coming about. Hmm...almost seems intentional.

And any "bickering" is put to rest by careful exegesis of the manuscripts, as previously demonstrated.

Taking a cue from one of yours...

"Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand." -Mark Twain

Thanks Mark. That is, the meaning of the Gospel from God is quite evident to even a child without much need for contextualization:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6).

"For God so loved the world He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

See that? Pretty straightforward eh? However, if you are one to seek to dredge up "absurdities" and "contradictions" in the OT, you will then need a great deal of contextualization since that time and place and mind is much, much further removed linguistically and culturally from our time and mind--than is the NT.

The 21st century modern America mind can more effortlessly understand the Common Era Koinonia Greek in Hellenistic Palestinian mind than the Ancient Hebrew/Aramaic in ancient Egypt/Mesopotamia/Palestinian mind. Ya dig?

Stuff's on the table, dinner is served. Gotta choose to pick it up and put it to your mouth though. Unlike Mom, God's not going to force you to eat your dinner

And to you as well amigo.

Regards,
BGic

WWSD

Suh arrogance from someone who adheres to the teachings of christ.

Fascinating.

I simply wanted to read an informed discussion about the link you posted, but you don't seem to be interested in even trying.

I thought you had a vested interest in this subject, as it is the cornrstone of much of your preaching. But since you don't want to "re-hash" the subject, I'll not pursue it further.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not interested. Really. I don't react well to being patronized.

As for what is on the table, you believe that I encounter it in the wrong state of mind, and am thus predisposed to reject it. I'm sorry, I don't find that whole discussion very productive.

And your analogy fails once again, since if I do not eat what is on God's table, I am put into his oven forever. Threfore I have no choice but to swallow it all. Furthermore, God knew before I was even born whether or not I'd eat. So it seems rather odd to me that he would offer such a "choice" while knowing full well what I would do in the end.

I'm sure you have a wonderful answer to that, but I'm no longer interested in bothering with you. Or perhaps my "overlords" have called me off now that you've scared christ into me, or them, or someone.

ex-xian

So massacering a city and taking the women for yourselves is ok sometimes and not ok othertimes? I didn't know you were a moral relativist.

Why would an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god unleash revelation in such a way that it would be a major stumbling block to billions of people believeing in him? The NT says that all scripture is god-breathed and useful for inspiration, exhortation, and reproof. It also says that what the OT guys did, they did as examples for us to follow.

Too bad all of us who has major problems with those examples will go to hell b/c god was too careless to make allowances for "linguistic and cultural" differences.

ex-xian

I think maybe you're reading into this quote what you want it to say. The parts of the bible that bother me the most are the purely narrative stories of the OT. They're pretty easy to understand too.

Cross Examiner

ex-xian,

Perhaps you have the OT citation of these things?

It is not a stumbling block upon close inspection. Take our "jealous" God issue as an example...

If you have a hang-up in the OT keeping you from trusting the NT then make them known to someone who has done a good deal of study or do your own in-depth study. The truth warrants your time and energy to at least this degree. God does indeed require you to seek and not throw up your hands if you find an "absurdity" here or there. Seek the full context. It is the honest thing to do and I fully suspect that you are responsible for this much.

Are you sure about that?

Did you even read the links? No? I think the Internet makes it really easy on him who would seek. If you refuse to even do that much...

Regards,
BGic

Doctor X

Pssssst! . . . check out why YHWH forsaketh Saul. . . .

Then, of course, there is that passage demanding child sacrifice. . . .

--J.D.

Cross Examiner

Doctor X,
I might. Verse please?

Regards,
BGic