GunnerJ

Mathew 6: 6-7

RawData

Definitely one of the better ones for c/s separation.

Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Beautiful!
RD

Jewel

Critics voice concerns to the Manatee School Board

GaryP

Boy, is that the truth! In my town, I did not realize that the city council had begun with prayer for many years.

Then the paper reported that they had stopped doing it about 5 years ago because of legal concerns.

The story reported that the prayer now was immediately BEFORE the meeting.

So, I figured there's nothing possibly illegal about that. But then when I checked out the city's website, their council agenda was in this order;

1) Convene meeting
2) Prayer
3) Call meeting to order

I don't understand the difference between convention of the meeting and calling it to order but if the prayer is on the agenda and in the minutes is it legally correct?

Ennazus

I don't understand why they don't just call the meeting to order and get on with it. What does prayer have to do with a city council meeting?

GaryP

My wife and I just got back from FT. Myers Beach.

I think we probably drove through Lake County!

I was struck by all the religiosity down there.

I never thought of FL as Bible Belt territory but I think my perspective has changed.

The Lee County paper had a report about their school board being concerned about a lack of diversity in the prayers which they heard.

There had been 12 prayers by outside clergy since they started doing prayers again and all were from Christian churches.

And the paper said that sometimes the ministers "stetched" the rules by mentioning JC by name.

The proposal of one board member was to hire their own cahplain.

I guess so they could fire him/her if Jesus got top billing too often.

GaryP

Got me.

And there's probably about 10 churches within walking distance of the building where they meet.

A few years ago, the 1st meeting of the newly elected council was held at the Fairfield Christian Church which is the biggest and most political right wing congregation in the County.

Even my local paper thought THAT was going a bit far.

SLD

The problem with city council prayers is that they are pseudo-legal. The Supreme Court held that legislative chaplains and prayers do not violate the establishment clause. I don't have the cite handy, but a Kansas Legislator challenged the opening of the Kansas legislator with prayer as a violation of church state and the Supremes struck him down noting that Congress has had prayers and chaplains since its opening in 1789. Does that decision also apply to City Councils? Are they "Legislative Bodies". I would argue not, because unlike state and federal legislators, I as a citizen do not have the right nor even the standing to bring a matter before them for their consideration. Congress might ask me my opinion of a matter, but without a Congressman actually sponsoring legislation for me, I don't get to ask them to do a particular act.

Not so with a City Council. I have represented clients in zoning matters before City Council meetings before. And sure enough, they opened with a prayer. What do I do? I can't say "I object." I have to represent my client and needless to say that probably wouldn't be in his best interest. So I stand and pretend to be quiet - while thoughts of a 1983 suit flit through my brain. City Council prayers leave us with a serious dilemma - either we pray or we lose our case. No judge would (at least none that I know of, and I've known quite a few fundamentalist judges) would force litigants to pray before opening court.

SLD

GaryP

Aren't there some rulings concerning the need for these prayers to be on the neutral side though?

I suspect that my council wants to pretend it's before the meeting so they can have a blatantly Christian prayer.