Eudaimonist

I might not agree with humanism as it currently stands, but I wouldn't say that it is relativistic. A better analogy is the scientific pursuit of truth, which is based in observation, and is certainly not a "tailless kite". A better logo for the humanists would be a microscope.

Ab_Normal

Would you care to join this thread, where the differences between the different Judeo-Christian sects are being discussed?

Albert Cipriani

Dear Euda,
Your “Scientific pursuit of truth” is a non sequitur. Unless, of course, you can (using that magic microscope of yours you say ought to be the humanistic icon) show me your truth, weigh it, measure it, or hold it up to be independently verified by the dispassionate observation of your peers.

Point is, the domain of science is empirical fact, not truth. Who has crossed the line between empiricism and theology? -- not us theists, but you humanists who, under cover of objectivity, have foisted a relativistic view of the universe to dethrone God and His absolutes. So don’t give me this “scientific pursuit” bull when the pursuit you speak of is actually a modern-day witch-hunt beyond your domain of empirical expertise.

And your kite is tailless! Every one of your facts is contingent upon prior facts in an infinite regression flapping into eternity as long as you refuse to anchor your facts in a First Cause. – Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

GeoTheo

I think the tailless kite analogy fits. I'm all for treating people"as if they posess inherent worth and dignity" but I do so because I believe they are created in the Image of God. Obviously this will sound absurd to atheists, but by placing the authority with God, no earthly authority can be justified in taking peoples "inherent worth and dignity" away. i.e. "God given Rights"
But if these rights exist, only because a group of people dreamed them up and declared them to be a so, another group of people with more political might would be just as justified in writing up there own document and taking them away.
"God given Rights"- Rights people are endowed with by their creator, not a paper document, form the Basis of Our Constitution, and in my opinion the Humanist manifestos and other similar documents heavily borrow from it while denying the foundation of these truths.
Posessing their God given rights, I believe people can and should choose their religious and philosophical beliefs freely. Yes even atheists posess God given rights, but they don't posess them because a group of intellectuals and dignitaries say they do.

GeoTheo

Thank you. At least we agree on Capitalism. I think it is esential for freedom as we know it. I read the Capitalist Magazine online that is put out by the Ayn Rand society.
Basically I am for Christianity, Capitalism, and Westen Civilization in that order.

njhartsh

My goodness: I make one little innocent news post, and KABOOM!

Seems to me the pot is calling the kettle "tailless." Surely you understand that atheists and most humanists consider the "highest source of truth" you gesticulate at to be an ad hoc rationalization that shows every likelihood of being a figment of your imagination? At least humanists will admit that morality is dependent on humanity; from our perspective, you folks are just refusing to call a shovel a shovel.

Ah, I see. Our cited facts are "contingent," but your "First Cause" is not, because... er... because you say so. Hm.

Why is God right?

- Nathan

njhartsh

Whatever brings you to this conclusion? "[J]ust as justified"? What in the world obligates me to accept the legitimacy of any attempt to take my human rights away? (Such as, say, a belligerent deity who tosses me in an eternal furnace because he's an inveterate religious bigot?) Sorry--I'm not going to accept that anyone is "justified" in taking basic human rights away, and "political might" is quite irrelevant to normative legitimacy.

What is to stop another deity with more supernatural might than yours from writing up her own statement of "Goddess-Given Rights" and taking away your "God given" ones? There may of course be more deities in heaven and earth, Horatio/Than are dreamt of in your mythology.

- Nathan

Writer@Large

Ah. Thanks.

I could never get into libertarianism myself. I've always found the Libertarian Party Platform to be much like taking the most extreme parts of a Democrat and a Republican and stitching them together in a lab. But I can see where their ideas and the (broader) ideas of humanism intertwine.

--W@L

Eudaimonist

Then you must use the word "truth" differently than I do.

I'm not a humanist, or weren't you paying attention? I was simply correcting you in your misreading of humanism.

Apparently your particular moral absolutes lead you to hostile and rude behavior. I'll pass on them and on any further conversations with you.

Albert Cipriani

Sorry Euda,
No offense meant. I was only trying to state my thoughts forcefully, not rudely. All references to "you" and "your" were rhetorical, not meant to mean you yourself but humanists in general.

Our difference is over fact and truth. As you say, we must see them differently. Science contains no truth, only facts cobbled together into ever-revised theories. Theology contains no facts, only truths induced and deduced from truths. Where fact is the stuff of empiricism, truth is the stuff of faith. -- Sincerely Sorry, Albert the Traditional Catholic