Iasion

Greetings all,

Actually,
may I politely point out that in base 3,

2 + 2 = 11

base 3 columns are: one,three,nine...
and 1 three and 1 one makes four.
base3 counting would look like:
0,1,2, 10,11,12, 20,21,22, 100,101,102, 110...

More widely,
two plus two is always four,
even though four may be WRITTEN in different ways - that that does not change any truth.

Iasion

Albert Cipriani

Thanks for the correction Iasion,
I can always count (tho, obviously, I literally CAN'T COUNT in base 3!) on you guys to set me straight when I am wrong. Like the Pope, I am mostly fallible. -- Sincerely, Albert the Traditional Catholic

lpetrich

First, I think that there is a such thing as too much gratitude.

If one is excessively grateful, then one will be grateful to a pickpocket for not robbing you at gunpoint, an armed robber for nor killing you, and a murderer for sending you off to Heaven.

Also, though creation from nothing is a traditional dogma, it is only imperfectly supported in the two creation stories of Genesis. Genesis 1 has stronger support; God simply commands something to happen, and it happens. Though that something is sometimes a form of spotaneous generation, like the Earth produce plants and animals. And Genesis 1:1 does not explicitly state the God had created out of nothing; it may also be translated as "When God was beginning to create the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless and empty." So "creation" being giving form to formless matter is consistent with Genesis 1. It is more strongly implied in Genesis 2, where God creates Adam and the animals by shaping some soil, and Eve from one of Adam's ribs.

Albert Cipriani

Well Excuuuuuse Me!,
I should try harder NOT to be grateful for the intelligent comments made around here!? No need to fret, Ipetrich, I see no evidence that you yourself are capable of causing me to fail in this matter. Tho others will, thankfully, continue to.

Your phrase “excessively grateful” is an oxymoron. It’s an impossible compounding of oil and water terms, like Iraqi “military intelligence.” Gratitude, like love, is one of those emotions that have no down side.

If I could somehow work up a head of gratitude over some aspect of my mugging, I’d be a better man than I presently am. But even as ungrateful as I presently am, I’m a better man than any man who thinks that gratitude is a precious commodity in need of hording. Shame on You, Albert the Traditional Catholic

scigirl

Albert, once again you missed my point.

I'm not talking about suffering, and how much it sucks that some people are born with both sex organs, yadda yadda yadda.

Here I'll quote myself again:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (New International Version)

And God did so by giving all the males an X and a Y chromosome, and all the females two X’s. Nice and simple, just according to Genesis. Or. . . . did He?
...
If making unambiguous men and women to procreate was God's plan, he failed miserably. So either, it wasn't really God's plan, or maybe. . . God does not exist as you think He does.

Leave suffering out of it since it's getting in the way of my original question.

God stated in the Bible that he made man and woman, for the purposes of procreation. But, because of the way in which we are made, namely nondisjunction during meiosis and the peculiar development of the sex organs themselves, we ar NOT clearly made as man and woman. Not to mention he made a lot of sterile people.

Do you or do you not see the contradiction?

scigirl

Albert Cipriani

Gee Scigirl,
This dialogue is actually starting to scare me, becoming an alienating experience for me.

No, I do not. That you guys obviously can see what I can’t see and yet can seem to have 20/20 acuity in other areas is disconcerting. As a Catholic all we claim in our Nicene Creed is to “BELIEVE in the seen and the unseen,” not to actually see the unseen. But you atheists don’t conversely believe in what we don’t believe in, you claim to actually see what we can’t see.

How do you get that out of this: “And God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply [Genesis 1:28]”? God also told them not eat of a certain tree. Exactly how (in your mind for it certainly doesn’t happen in reality) does a command morph into a “purpose”? I don’t get you. Whether or not Adam and Eve complied with God’s commands or not has nothing to do with whether or not they fulfill God’s purpose.

I learned in third grade catechism that the purpose of Creation is to glorify God. It’s the most satisfying thing a creature is capable of doing when done willingly and the most terrible thing a creature does when done unwilling. Ergo, God’s purpose is not frustrated, neither by the creatures in heaven nor in hell.

Even Satan’s continued existence is giving glory to God. His disobedience and our disobedience of God does not touch upon God’s purposes. If God’s purpose could be frustrated, God could not be God; He’d have to resign in disgrace for failing to fulfill His job description.

Another contradiction, apparent only to you, is that tho God says He made us male and female:
Well why stop there? God is also on record for making us perfect and we are NOT clearly made perfect anymore. God is also on record for choosing His Chosen People, and they are NOT clearly His chosen people anymore. God is also on record for making the heavens and the earth and yet also clearly predicting that “heaven and earth will pass away.”

Point is, if you can see a contradiction where there is only a cessation, you can’t see clearly. Get ye to a library and bone up on some metaphysics. Then maybe you’ll stop seeing things!

Since I’ve lost confidence in our ability to communicate, I’ll make your theological case against God for you alongside a parallel reality in the hopes that if you can see the invalidity of one, you’ll see the invalidity of the other as well:

1) God created us male and female.
1) You gave birth to a son and daughter.

2) God commanded them to multiply.
2) You encouraged your children to go to college.

3) God disallows some of us fecundity.
3) You didn’t save money to pay for your children’s tuition.

4) Some of us don’t multiply.
4) Your uneducated children work at Taco Bell.

5) Sterile people contradict their Creator’s purpose in creating them.
5) Taco Bell workers contradict their mother’s purpose in giving birth to them.

Saddened, Albert the Traditional Catholic

scigirl

I didn't stop there. I questioned everything, then became an atheist.

About your taco bell analogy - it fails on multiple levels. First, it's faulty because as a future mother (maybe), I will not claim to be an all-knowing all-powerful deity. Some people here at II may refer to me as a goddess, but they are clearly wrong!

Second, not everything is in my control. Parents do have an enormous role in creating who their child is, but I think we can both agree that other factors play a role. Even if parents wanted to control everything - they just can't. However, according to most Christians, everything could theoretically be in God's control, right? If God is NOT in control of creating genitalia in utero, than who is? Satan? Evolution? Aliens?

Third, your story involves specific willful actions on the part of human beings. My example is not about behaviors that disobey god - it's about the birth of ambiguous sexed babies.

Let's make the analogy better:

1) I claim to want all my kids to go to college. However, I only set aside a trust fund for one of them.

2) I claim that I want my kids to multiply, yet I force the boys to get a vasectomy.

3) I claim that I want my kids to be free from disease, yet I refuse to vaccinate them.

If I did these actions, would you suspect each of my claims? You should. And I'm a lowly imperfect human. When God makes statements about what he allegedly wants for his creation - shouldn't the actions speak as loud as the words?

I still don't know where you stand on my question - does God really care that much about male and female identity like the Bible implies that He does?

Either He does and he screwed up, or He doesn't. (Or - He does not exist - a third possibility that of course I believe to be true).

I don't understand why you don't understand this question. Put your catechism books and latin translators down and think about it like a 3rd grader for just two seconds - it doesn't make any sense that a God who allegedly cares SO DAMN MUCH about human sexuality - so much that anyone who chooses to change their gender or chooses a same sex partner gets sent to eternal punishment - didn't care to create a system of creating male and female genitalia that was much less ambigious.

I'm not claiming that in order for God to exist, that we all have to be perfect. I am simply pointing out one of the many inconsistencies between what God allegedly wanted for His creation, and what his creation ended up becoming. You pointed out even more - yet you still believe. I don't understand that either.

scigirl

P.S. I learned about another ambiguity today in physiology class - some men actually lactate. Why is that? Evolution has an explanation - what in the world is the creationist one? Did God just forget to leave the lactating genes out of the male? Pretty gross oversight if you ask me, especially if he hates gay stuff so much. If a woman touches her husband's lactating breast, is she exhibiting lesbian tendencies? The more I learn about human sexuality, the more I find the Christian views of it completely off-base, incomplete, and just plain wrong.

scigirl

I was reading this critique of Les Strobel and a few things popped out at me. I have had thoughts similar to those when discussing this issue with Christians such as Albert. The author here, however, is much more clear and concise than I am:

scigirl

Wounded King

Hi there,

sorry to be a buttinski, but didnt you just post on one of the other threads albert that going by the Catholic conception of god

So where do all these cessations come into things, he obviously didnt change his mind about his chosen people, because he cant change his mind, except when he does presumably as in the several cases in the bible where he changes his mind on a course of action after dialogue with one person or another, see Genesis 18:20-33, Amos 7:3.

Nostalgic Pushhead

Small point- lactation isn't a gene or anything... Everyone's capable of it, it just takes female hormones to, uh, make it happen. Transsexuals who take hormones can and do lactate. Thats, uh, your fun fact of the day.

God doesn't make male and female, hormones do. They should be worshipped accordingly.