Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bree · 01-20-2003, 09:01 PM

So okay, "minor cheating" is okay, but "major cheating" is not? What exactly is major cheating, if not ripping off an entire research paper to hand in for a final grade?

I have had someone "minorly cheat" off me - I dropped a finished paper in an instructor's drop-box, only to have another student steal the paper and hand it in as their own. It is for that reason that I have never stooped to the level of intellectual theft. I have had my share of tough semesters at university (I work a full-time job along with a 24 credit courseload) and I would rather lose face and request a two-week extension - even if that meant a drop in my grade - than steal someone else's work and present it as my own. I've been there, I've experienced the difficulty, and that is what I base my judgement of this situation on: you can do it without having to cheat.

Someone recently said that life online and "real life" aren't that different. If I were an peer of Blue_Metal's and she chose to brag about her plagarism to me, I would most certainly discuss my feelings towards the subject with her. And yes, call me a snitch, but if I were a hard-working student who actually did all my university work and I saw another student - even if it's a friend - faking their way through things, then yes, I would turn them into the professor. She (hypothetically) took a chance in confiding in me, and even if I were a friend in "real life" it would still be up to me personally as to what I did with that information. Being a confidante does not mean covering for the person who confided in you. I see the events that unfolded here at IIDB no differently. Blue_Metal took us all into her confidence by sharing her story. We are not individually obliged to keep that confidence. Note that Sakpo did not act as a representative of IIDB when he took action - he was acting as an individual. He has, as an individual, no obligation to keep Blue_Metal's confidence.

Ion · 01-20-2003, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
So okay, "minor cheating" is okay, but "major cheating" is not? What exactly is major cheating, if not ripping off an entire research paper to hand in for a final grade?
...

The answer is in my post about major cheating at university, and in life, with professional cheating.

In the same post, I put forward Linda Tripp snitching on Bill Clinton, in what was already a bigger cheating than plagiarizing for an university exam, and I already disprove of Tripp's snitching on the bigger cheating.

I think there is too much self-righteousness going on here.

Ion · 01-20-2003, 09:18 PM

I agree with this:

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar

...
This instance, though, is too pickayune a transgression for that.

All of us have things to hide, some of us more than others. As long as those things are not costing someone blood or huge sums of money, I think we should hold silent.
...

Bree · 01-20-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion

I think there is too much self-righteousness going on here.

Would you have a problem if I stole a major work of yours and passed it off as my own?

Does being "human" give you the right to do something you know is wrong?

Ion · 01-20-2003, 09:42 PM

Bree,
this post that I am talking about, has examples of major cheating.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion
I am disturbed when reading about this.

What's ethical for me to do in a situation like this, is:

1) to not snitch on somebody, for this almost minor cheating;
after all, I saw more outrageous cheats in university, like a failing grade in one PhD exam not being reported to the administration due to a common ethnic background between a professor and the student, when working I saw a foreign-born (like me) colleague who couldn't speak elementary English but 'earned' a post-graduate degree in US from a public university that must have been infested with ethnic networking, I know of a professor claiming that "For me a good graduate student, is a student who never asks questions.", and much more of this kind of serious breach;

2) to not play self-righteous about minor cheating with the culprit -like many posters and moderators did in the threads I read on this example of plagiarism-, because we are all humans;

3) to reason with the culprit about future ethics, not to snitch on past minor difficulties;

4) to recognize that while someone plagiarizes a few times, and not making a profession out of it, bigger wrongdoings need addressing, like people instigating crimes, instigating wars and perpetrating more serious cheating -like I enumerated in 1), plus Olympic athletes caught on drugs and still getting medals, political briberies, cheating at work in one's main professional activity-;

it reminds me of when I was in the Eastern US, and I would get some traffic tickets for harmless speeding, or for illegal turn right when red on an empty street -so no traffic danger there warranting a ticket instead of a warning-, but these righteous cops chasing tickets-income forgot about 'Serve and Protect' with crime ramping big time around them;

or better, it reminds me of Linda Tripp snitching in public on Bill Clinton, with what Monica Lewinski confided to Tripp about Clinton when trusting Tripp.

Again, I agree with Jobar, about what cheating is worth reporting.

Ion · 01-20-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree
Would you have a problem if I stole a major work of yours and passed it off as my own?

I would, if you get public benefit at my expense.

In this plagiarism case, the author was not harmed by someone plagiarizing for an university exam that was not published publicly.
The snitch went to the school in order to harm the plagiarizer.

Ion · 01-20-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bree

...
Does being "human" give you the right to do something you know is wrong?

I don't know about 'the right', but in life I see wrong and cheating about every day.

Most cheating is minor and not worth fighting.

beastmaster · 01-20-2003, 10:18 PM

I agree with the general sentiment here that Sakpo's action sets a disturbing precedent about the anonymity of this setting.

Blue_Metal's action was a wrong, but nevertheless it was a victimless crime.

I haven't waded through all the threads . . . how did Sakpo know which school BM goes to?

cricket · 01-20-2003, 10:40 PM

I recall that Blue_Metal mentioned the name of her school, at one point, in one of her posts.

lisarea · 01-20-2003, 11:09 PM

Plagiarism is NOT a victimless crime. Sure, in the case of an undergraduate paper for a class, the plagiarist isn't being directly paid for the stolen work, but it still affects others.

If it's not caught, plagiarism ups the ante for those students who've done their own work. Whether grading is on a curve or not, there is a general baseline that professors have to judge by, based on the average quality of work that's turned in.

On top of that, it adds to the expectation of plagiarism. My son and I have both been in situations where we were very casually accused of plagiarism based solely on the fact that it's so common that it's almost assumed if you don't write poorly. Yes, this is primarily the responsibility of the teacher making the accusations, but some of the blame for creating this environment can be placed squarely on the heads of not only those who plagiarize, but those who dismiss it as minor or insignificant.

Honestly, it makes me sick to see people steal others' work and gain from it in any way. However, I'd certainly allow a little wiggle room for, say, a college freshman who hadn't really thought the issue through, but ONLY if he or she were remorseful and learned something from these mistakes.

As such, my only hesitation about forwarding links to the thread is the fact that, by virtue of their location, they reveal certain irrelevant issues that should not be, but often are, taken into account. But that's just something that happens online. It's been happening on Usenet since, well, since Usenet. When you post something, there's always a chance some wingnut is going to take offense and try to get you fired, grounded, suspended, etc. It just happens.

And of COURSE there are worse crimes you can commit. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that hamhandedly plagiarizing a paper for a freshman level college course is equivalent to the fucking Holocaust or anything.

But it is wrong, and when the plagiarist refuses to accept responsibility, it seems like a pretty good indicator that they'll try it again. The original threads struck me not as an honest appeal for advice or support, but simply as trial balloons for excuses. I haven't seen anyone claim that any of the posts in those threads were forged or altered in any way. If the poster was being honest and was genuinely seeking help, what's the harm?

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01-20-2003, 09:01 PM	#11
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	So okay, "minor cheating" is okay, but "major cheating" is not? What exactly is major cheating, if not ripping off an entire research paper to hand in for a final grade? I have had someone "minorly cheat" off me - I dropped a finished paper in an instructor's drop-box, only to have another student steal the paper and hand it in as their own. It is for that reason that I have never stooped to the level of intellectual theft. I have had my share of tough semesters at university (I work a full-time job along with a 24 credit courseload) and I would rather lose face and request a two-week extension - even if that meant a drop in my grade - than steal someone else's work and present it as my own. I've been there, I've experienced the difficulty, and that is what I base my judgement of this situation on: you can do it without having to cheat. Someone recently said that life online and "real life" aren't that different. If I were an peer of Blue_Metal's and she chose to brag about her plagarism to me, I would most certainly discuss my feelings towards the subject with her. And yes, call me a snitch, but if I were a hard-working student who actually did all my university work and I saw another student - even if it's a friend - faking their way through things, then yes, I would turn them into the professor. She (hypothetically) took a chance in confiding in me, and even if I were a friend in "real life" it would still be up to me personally as to what I did with that information. Being a confidante does not mean covering for the person who confided in you. I see the events that unfolded here at IIDB no differently. Blue_Metal took us all into her confidence by sharing her story. We are not individually obliged to keep that confidence. Note that Sakpo did not act as a representative of IIDB when he took action - he was acting as an individual. He has, as an individual, no obligation to keep Blue_Metal's confidence.

01-20-2003, 10:18 PM	#18
beastmaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid / I am a: Lifelong atheist Posts: 885	I agree with the general sentiment here that Sakpo's action sets a disturbing precedent about the anonymity of this setting. Blue_Metal's action was a wrong, but nevertheless it was a victimless crime. I haven't waded through all the threads . . . how did Sakpo know which school BM goes to?

01-20-2003, 10:40 PM	#19
cricket Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St Louis MO USA Posts: 1,188	I recall that Blue_Metal mentioned the name of her school, at one point, in one of her posts.

01-20-2003, 11:09 PM	#20
lisarea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Broomfield, Colorado, USA Posts: 5,550	Plagiarism is NOT a victimless crime. Sure, in the case of an undergraduate paper for a class, the plagiarist isn't being directly paid for the stolen work, but it still affects others. If it's not caught, plagiarism ups the ante for those students who've done their own work. Whether grading is on a curve or not, there is a general baseline that professors have to judge by, based on the average quality of work that's turned in. On top of that, it adds to the expectation of plagiarism. My son and I have both been in situations where we were very casually accused of plagiarism based solely on the fact that it's so common that it's almost assumed if you don't write poorly. Yes, this is primarily the responsibility of the teacher making the accusations, but some of the blame for creating this environment can be placed squarely on the heads of not only those who plagiarize, but those who dismiss it as minor or insignificant. Honestly, it makes me sick to see people steal others' work and gain from it in any way. However, I'd certainly allow a little wiggle room for, say, a college freshman who hadn't really thought the issue through, but ONLY if he or she were remorseful and learned something from these mistakes. As such, my only hesitation about forwarding links to the thread is the fact that, by virtue of their location, they reveal certain irrelevant issues that should not be, but often are, taken into account. But that's just something that happens online. It's been happening on Usenet since, well, since Usenet. When you post something, there's always a chance some wingnut is going to take offense and try to get you fired, grounded, suspended, etc. It just happens. And of COURSE there are worse crimes you can commit. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that hamhandedly plagiarizing a paper for a freshman level college course is equivalent to the fucking Holocaust or anything. But it is wrong, and when the plagiarist refuses to accept responsibility, it seems like a pretty good indicator that they'll try it again. The original threads struck me not as an honest appeal for advice or support, but simply as trial balloons for excuses. I haven't seen anyone claim that any of the posts in those threads were forged or altered in any way. If the poster was being honest and was genuinely seeking help, what's the harm?

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