WJ

Well, I'm not talking about free-will. I'm talking more of the voluntarism vaiety of schopenhouer/kant type. And BTW, if we were to ever start a 'belief' thread, I was going to bring that into the mix.

Nonetheless, it could apply to part of that free-will thread. At this point, I'll just answer her question which goes back to creating a universe exnihilo and/or the stoppage of time. Just as we created the computer with all possible programs/combinations, if we could ceate a universe and actually live in it (which is an interesting notion that sciene has some knowledge about I'm sure) then some of this so-called dichotomy would be solved. Otherwise the free-will illusion exists as one until we can find out what caused the 'first cause', big bang, whatever... .

Walrus

John Page

Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference whether you're refering to "will" or "free will".

Voluntarism posits the "will" as the primary motivating force. As I exemplified in the free will argument in NialScorva's thread and also in my analogy with the supposed "will" of a moving object, an entirely physical explanation is at hand.

This being the case, voluntarism is irrelevant.

Cheers, John

WJ

John!

Of course I would disagree. Answer this one: which takes primacy, the will or the intellect?

Let me save you the trouble, it's insoluble and relevant to your Being. is it red and green all over? This is one reason we don't know the nature of our existence (from exnihilo) or your problems associated with the mind-body and other metaphysical issues. Otherwise, please tell me the nature of the first cause?

Better yet, what is the nature of your existence? Where is evidence of the first human Being?

Metaphysics then is in fact meaningless, and so your original post is a waist of time.

Sorry to break-bad, but no euphemism here.

Walrus

John Page

1. The will is an imaginary agent or cause, this concept being used when the real explanation for events or phenomena is unknown.

2. The intellect is an expression of the process of the mind or the power of the mind to apprehend a resolve problems.

Your question of primacy between the two is, therefore, like asking whether chalk is superior to cheese.

As to the study of metaphysics, I consider it useful in understanding what is on the "mind" side of the "mind/body" border. In turn, this enables us to hunt down the phantoms of our imagination.

Cheers, John

Synaesthesia

WJ
Free will results from our ability to evaluate the consequences of several different courses of action, and disliking being forced to take action we would rather avoid.

In other words, free-will is a memetic and developmental question, not one about the beginning of the universe.

WJ

This is the way I always understand this little ditty:

Causation relates to the physical universe. The physical universe relates to the will [the essence thereof-being] and is a metaphysical question. Therefore, causation and the illusion of 'free' will relates to metaphysics.

Please reconstruct that conclusion/assumption/premise/assertion to make it true, false, etc. etc..

Walrus

jenn

Wow!!
I love this type of deep discussion! I only wish I had the knowledge to use my words to describe how I feel and what I do know about the "mind".
I do, however, think it is safe to say that it is very questionable on how the mind really works.I have to agree with John...it is a phenomenan.
I think it is amazing that we learn so much year after year, but the brain is so complex, that it is hard to explain and figure out.
In my belief system, well, I believe in a force(or GOD, if you will),no I am not a Christian in the sense that I do not believe that Jesus is God!
Call me what ya want..
I wonder if the mind/brain is so complex for a reason.The reason being that it was made that way for us not to figure it out..I DON'T KNOW
I love thinking about it though!!! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

WJ

jenn!

Indeed, phenomenalism and consciousness is quite a mystery. Keep searching!

As it should be!

Walrus

John Page

IMO its to outsmart other mind/brains evolutionwise. Stronger muscles give the advantage in physical combat so smarter minds seems reasonable for mental combat.

Cheers, John

John Page

Please provide an example to clarify what you think causation is, define the scope of the physical universe in the context of your statement - specifcially does it include metaphysical entities. Please differentiate "the essence thereof-being" from other existences.

Then I will be better able to understand the relations you are proposing exist between them. BTW, You may wish to consider that all questions are metaphysical.

Cheers, John