Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ex-xian · 12-22-2002, 07:53 AM

So I got into a debate last night with a fundie buddy last night about evolution. He kept harping on the lack of transitional fossils. Anybody know a good web site or references that refute this.

My areas of study are mathematics and philosophy, so I'm not very equipped to answer biological type questions....any help would be appreciated!

theyeti · 12-22-2002, 08:05 AM

Try these for starters:

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html" target="_blank">Transitional Fossils FAQ</a>

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/" target="_blank">Fossil Hominids</a>

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates" target="_blank">29 evidences for evolution -- transitional forms</a>

theyeti

Dark Jedi · 12-22-2002, 05:19 PM

Tell them to find a new tune to harp.

A creationist will argue that one does not lead directly to another. If a link is found, they will claim there is no transitional between the new form and the two they link.

They have done this so many times that they are just about to the point of making us show that one gave direct birth to the other, as the transitionals have been filling their gaps at a steady rate.

Free Thinkr · 12-22-2002, 09:52 PM

Ask him for "transition languages" between, say, old english and modern american english.

MrDarwin · 12-23-2002, 05:24 AM

Good luck; creationists define "transitional" a bit differently than scientists do, but it can be hard to pin them down on their definition. Try asking him, specifically, what he would consider a "transitional" fossil--in other words, what characteristics must it have so that he would be convinced it was transitional between two different organisms. (Sometimes it helps to get more specific; for example, if birds had evolved from dinosaurs, what would he expect from an organism transitional between the two.) Then watch him wiggle.

[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

[ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]

ex-xian · 12-23-2002, 05:29 AM

Thanks for all the great suggestions! May for force be with you...always!

Tim Thompson · 12-23-2002, 03:26 PM

In addition to the Talk.Origins archive pages, I would like to suggest one of my own pages as well: <a href="http://www.tim-thompson.com/trans-fossils.html" target="_blank">On Creation Science and "Transitional Fossils"</a>. It is based on an article by Roger Cuffey, a paleontolgist at Penn State, and a member of the American Scientific Affiliation, a Christian organization. His writing certainly can't be criticized as originating from the hated atheist, and he does a good job outlining the taxonomic context of transitional fossils.

It's also worth pointing out that the taxonomic classification scheme does not allow for "transitional" fossils. Ever fossil either has to be force fit into a pre-existing classification, or a new classification is made for it (which happens rather often I believe, at least for things still living). So one could argue that there cannot be any "transitional" fossils, by definition.

Valentine Pontifex · 12-23-2002, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theyeti:
Try these for starters:

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html" target="_blank">Transitional Fossils FAQ</a>

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/" target="_blank">Fossil Hominids</a>

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates" target="_blank">29 evidences for evolution -- transitional forms</a>

Don't forget some other T.O. stuff:

<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx.html" target="_blank">http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx.html</a>
<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/" target="_blank">http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/</a>

Or one can simply point to the spot on the T.O. outline:
<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/outline.html#fossils" target="_blank">http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/outline.html#fossils</a>
or index:
<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-index.html#transitional" target="_blank">http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-index.html#transitional</a>

There is also a great article on the ASA's web site:

<a href="http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Miller.html" target="_blank">http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Miller.html</a>

12-23-2002, 05:43 PM

Free Thinker,

That's a great analogy.

Another objection: where are the transitional bibles!

"Look Reverend Wong, God created each additional translation of the bible by a special act of creation. I mean, just look at the paucity of the transitional bible record. It's manifestly obvious that many special acts of God occured to keep the bible accurate."

"Look Father, the vast majority of bibles have been destroyed.."

"Oh, nice ad hoc addon, but no, hehehe no. I'm sorry, my child, you're just wrong. The process of editing and revision that we see happening with various editions of the bible only occurs within limits.

Yes, you heard me, different "Kinds" of bible that do not have a common heritage but were planned by God's arranged design not and successive series of translations and rewriting and editing.

You modernist scum. You make me vomit with your homeopathic dilution of Christian doctrine"

Valentine Pontifex · 12-23-2002, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Thompson:
In addition to the Talk.Origins archive pages, I would like to suggest one of my own pages as well: <a href="http://www.tim-thompson.com/trans-fossils.html" target="_blank">On Creation Science and "Transitional Fossils"</a>.

Tim, the link to Hunt's Horse FAQ needs updating. It is currently:
<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html" target="_blank">http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html</a>

12-22-2002, 07:53 AM	#1
ex-xian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 4,679	Transitional fossils So I got into a debate last night with a fundie buddy last night about evolution. He kept harping on the lack of transitional fossils. Anybody know a good web site or references that refute this. My areas of study are mathematics and philosophy, so I'm not very equipped to answer biological type questions....any help would be appreciated!

12-23-2002, 05:24 AM	#5
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Good luck; creationists define "transitional" a bit differently than scientists do, but it can be hard to pin them down on their definition. Try asking him, specifically, what he would consider a "transitional" fossil--in other words, what characteristics must it have so that he would be convinced it was transitional between two different organisms. (Sometimes it helps to get more specific; for example, if birds had evolved from dinosaurs, what would he expect from an organism transitional between the two.) Then watch him wiggle. [ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ] [ December 23, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-22-2002, 08:05 AM	#2
theyeti Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 9,747	Try these for starters: <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html" target="_blank">Transitional Fossils FAQ</a> <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/" target="_blank">Fossil Hominids</a> <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates" target="_blank">29 evidences for evolution -- transitional forms</a> theyeti

12-22-2002, 05:19 PM	#3
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	Tell them to find a new tune to harp. A creationist will argue that one does not lead directly to another. If a link is found, they will claim there is no transitional between the new form and the two they link. They have done this so many times that they are just about to the point of making us show that one gave direct birth to the other, as the transitionals have been filling their gaps at a steady rate.

12-22-2002, 09:52 PM	#4
Free Thinkr Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,379	Ask him for "transition languages" between, say, old english and modern american english.

12-23-2002, 05:29 AM	#6
ex-xian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 4,679	Thanks for all the great suggestions! May for force be with you...always!

12-23-2002, 03:26 PM	#7
Tim Thompson Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Pasadena, CA, USA Posts: 455	In addition to the Talk.Origins archive pages, I would like to suggest one of my own pages as well: <a href="http://www.tim-thompson.com/trans-fossils.html" target="_blank">On Creation Science and "Transitional Fossils"</a>. It is based on an article by Roger Cuffey, a paleontolgist at Penn State, and a member of the American Scientific Affiliation, a Christian organization. His writing certainly can't be criticized as originating from the hated atheist, and he does a good job outlining the taxonomic context of transitional fossils. It's also worth pointing out that the taxonomic classification scheme does not allow for "transitional" fossils. Ever fossil either has to be force fit into a pre-existing classification, or a new classification is made for it (which happens rather often I believe, at least for things still living). So one could argue that there cannot be any "transitional" fossils, by definition.

12-23-2002, 05:43 PM	#9
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	Free Thinker, That's a great analogy. Another objection: where are the transitional bibles! "Look Reverend Wong, God created each additional translation of the bible by a special act of creation. I mean, just look at the paucity of the transitional bible record. It's manifestly obvious that many special acts of God occured to keep the bible accurate." "Look Father, the vast majority of bibles have been destroyed.." "Oh, nice ad hoc addon, but no, hehehe no. I'm sorry, my child, you're just wrong. The process of editing and revision that we see happening with various editions of the bible only occurs within limits. Yes, you heard me, different "Kinds" of bible that do not have a common heritage but were planned by God's arranged design not and successive series of translations and rewriting and editing. You modernist scum. You make me vomit with your homeopathic dilution of Christian doctrine"

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.