Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clutch · 01-19-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Are you saying that a person should not have a belief unsupported by evidence? Fine. What is your evidence that I am mistaken? Did you believe I was mistaken before you heard my case? And how would your doing that jive with your notion that all beliefs should be supported by evidence?

Of course I have evidence that you are making evidence out of nothing: a great deal of inductive evidence that people who claim to find divine, or astrological, or fated, influence in their little upturns of fortune, good decisions, strength of conscience, and so forth, are systematically misinterpreting events in the several ways I described above.

That is, I have the same sort of evidence I have when I get an email from a Nigerian bureaucrat telling me he can get me $200,000 if I'll just send him $1000. Do I have specific knowledge of whether this is true in his case? No. Do I nevertheless have excellent grounds for concluding that he is not genuinely offering me $200,000? Hmm, seems kinda obvious to me -- but you decide for yourself.

luvluv · 01-19-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

On a different level, I want to thank you for your input on this thread. You may not appreciate it, but you have provided a wonderful practical demonstration of how believers categorize their experiences in such a way that those experiences are seen as evidence for deity. Also, despite our direct (but not, I think, disrespectful) opposition to, and questioning of, your views, you have remained calm and respectful, honestly attempting to explain to us why you feel and think as you do. This sort of thing is what IIDB is for!

Thanks, I appreciate it. (Most of it anyway)

Quote:

I admit that I could be wrong about that, because those messages are coming from your own subconscious mind

How do you know this?

luvluv · 01-19-2003, 12:07 PM

Clutch:

Quote:

Of course I have evidence that you are making evidence out of nothing: a great deal of inductive evidence that people who claim to find divine, or astrological, or fated, influence in their little upturns of fortune, good decisions, strength of conscience, and so forth, are systematically misinterpreting events in the several ways I described above.

Present this evidence that you have collected in each of these cases.

Your collective indcredulity as regards several disparate claims does not amount to evidence of anything but that you are a naturalist.

Your inference from your past experience certainly justifies your BELIEF that my feelings are mistaken, but it is not EVIDENCE that they are mistaken.

cricket · 01-19-2003, 01:31 PM

posted by cricket:

Quote:

Last week I was helping my sister study vocabulary words, including "regicide." Neither one of us knew the meaning of the word before that. Ten minutes after we finished studying I was reading a book, and lo and behold, I read the word "regicide."

Things like this happen all the time, luvluv, and it means nothing!

posted by luvluv:

Quote:

If you decide ahead of time that they don't, indeed they don't.

Well, then what do you think it means?

Family Man · 01-19-2003, 01:57 PM

Luvluv --

First, I do realize that you have no animosity towards me. Despite having an obviously cherished belief challenged, you have handled yourself with class. Having clashed with others on this board under similar circumstances, you have my admiration.

But, no, I don't think I'm wrong. It doesn't matter what Christian belief you were attracted to -- the idea that God speaks to us is so persuasive it is impossible to be unaware of it. I don't think it is possible to be surprised by a it as you describe. The difference between you and me, in my opinion, is that I recognized my thoughts as being my own -- not some message from God.

And thanks for recognizing that I have good reason to doubt your protestations that your experiences are valid. You do have good reason to make your experiences to be more profound than they really were. If you think I haven't come to heartbreaking decisions of my own, you are quite mistaken. I just don't attribute them to any god.

In short, I think I'm right.

Family Man · 01-19-2003, 02:07 PM

Luvluv --

We don't need evidence to conclude that the personal experiences of Christians are worthless as evidence. As I've noted, they are all based on a self-fullfilling prophecy. The phenomenon of self-fullfilling prophecies are well-known and no rationalist would put any stock in any evidence that is based on one.

If nothing else, I hope you understand from this thread why skeptics give little credit to such personal claims.

ipa68 · 01-19-2003, 05:46 PM

Oxymoron,

I totally agree with you. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post. My question - which others have also pointed out - was: even if there is some entity somewhere interfering with our lives, how are we supposed to know which one he/she/it is?

Luvluv,
If I pray to the Hindu god and "get answered" and another person prays to the christian god and "get answered" should I conclude that it doesn't matter to your god if I'm christian or Hindu or pagan or atheist or if I read the Bible or live my life according to any other religious books?
I am an atheist now but I used to be very gullible years ago. If god had spoke to me then, I'd hear. He never did thou. It's not that I don't hear him because I'm an atheist. I'm an atheist because I've never heard him. Maybe he doesn't speak to everyone, huh?

Greetings,

Teresa

Scottyman · 01-19-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar

A suggestion. Get a small notebook, and whenever you get one of these feelings or messages you think are from God, jot it down. Then later note the consequences of obeying or disobeying it. Do that for a long time, several months or more.

At the end of that time, look at the results and classify them as positive, negative or neutral, in terms of actual benefit to you. I would wager that you would find most of the results to be neutral- with positive and negative results about even. IOW you would find that your messages do you no overall and consistent good. [/B]

No religious person will ever do such a thing I would gather. It would be a direct challenge to their belief system and subconsiously they know the outcome so therefore it would not be done honestly. I would like to see the results but like I stated, I doubt anyone is up to the challenge.

hinduwoman · 01-19-2003, 05:57 PM

Luvluv, adding to the confusion is that all religions can claim such kind of thinking. Two of my relatives confidently declared yhey had seen in a vision the image of the gods they were praying to.
So who is this God guy?

Jobar · 01-19-2003, 09:06 PM

ipa68:
It's not that I don't hear him because I'm an atheist. I'm an atheist because I've never heard him.

Right on!

Welcome ipa68. From Brazil- I don't recall any other Brazilians here, but I might be wrong.

You shouldn't worry about your command of English- I know plenty who grew up speaking it that can't write it nearly as well as you do.

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01-19-2003, 01:57 PM	#55
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	Luvluv -- First, I do realize that you have no animosity towards me. Despite having an obviously cherished belief challenged, you have handled yourself with class. Having clashed with others on this board under similar circumstances, you have my admiration. But, no, I don't think I'm wrong. It doesn't matter what Christian belief you were attracted to -- the idea that God speaks to us is so persuasive it is impossible to be unaware of it. I don't think it is possible to be surprised by a it as you describe. The difference between you and me, in my opinion, is that I recognized my thoughts as being my own -- not some message from God. And thanks for recognizing that I have good reason to doubt your protestations that your experiences are valid. You do have good reason to make your experiences to be more profound than they really were. If you think I haven't come to heartbreaking decisions of my own, you are quite mistaken. I just don't attribute them to any god. In short, I think I'm right.

01-19-2003, 02:07 PM	#56
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	Luvluv -- We don't need evidence to conclude that the personal experiences of Christians are worthless as evidence. As I've noted, they are all based on a self-fullfilling prophecy. The phenomenon of self-fullfilling prophecies are well-known and no rationalist would put any stock in any evidence that is based on one. If nothing else, I hope you understand from this thread why skeptics give little credit to such personal claims.

01-19-2003, 05:46 PM	#57
ipa68 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 103	Oxymoron, I totally agree with you. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post. My question - which others have also pointed out - was: even if there is some entity somewhere interfering with our lives, how are we supposed to know which one he/she/it is? Luvluv, If I pray to the Hindu god and "get answered" and another person prays to the christian god and "get answered" should I conclude that it doesn't matter to your god if I'm christian or Hindu or pagan or atheist or if I read the Bible or live my life according to any other religious books? I am an atheist now but I used to be very gullible years ago. If god had spoke to me then, I'd hear. He never did thou. It's not that I don't hear him because I'm an atheist. I'm an atheist because I've never heard him. Maybe he doesn't speak to everyone, huh? Greetings, Teresa

01-19-2003, 05:57 PM	#59
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Luvluv, adding to the confusion is that all religions can claim such kind of thinking. Two of my relatives confidently declared yhey had seen in a vision the image of the gods they were praying to. So who is this God guy?

01-19-2003, 09:06 PM	#60
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	ipa68: It's not that I don't hear him because I'm an atheist. I'm an atheist because I've never heard him. Right on! Welcome ipa68. From Brazil- I don't recall any other Brazilians here, but I might be wrong. You shouldn't worry about your command of English- I know plenty who grew up speaking it that can't write it nearly as well as you do.

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