Hobbs

Yes, I agree this is a very large gap, but my point is that imagination can go a long way toward bridging this gap. At least, for me it did. I see it as sort of analogous to watching a movie or reading a book: a really good storyteller can put you in someone else's shoes and get you to feel all sorts of emotions of the characters almost as if it were happening to you, even though you are not in the situation. For me, anyway, this is even more the case with imagination: if you carefully watch and listen to others in a different place than yourself (parents when you are a pre-parent, for example), you can write an imaginitive script for yourself and feel yourself in that role; if you do it well, the emotions and other imagined experiences can be fairly accurate.

Now, of course I didn't know all the details of what would actually happen; many of those, naturally, were contingent on who happened to show up as my kid. An aunt and uncle of mine planned to have two kids, but the first one, as soon as she popped out, let everyone know who was in charge, and it wasn't Mom or Dad. She was quite a lot to handle. So much so that they had strong second thoughts about having the previously planned second child: if one alone is this much work, what would two be like? But they went ahead and had a second. Then they said that if the second had shown up first, they would have said "wow, kids are so fun and easy, let's have ten of them!" Another couple had an easy first child and a very difficult second. Those and a long list of other stories of a variety of types of kids with a variety of types of parents gave me fodder for my imagination. I ran many, many scenarios through my head, with all sorts of variations, trying to imagine how someone like me would be, and be changed, in and by these situations, what I might possibly feel, etc. Fortunately, one of the best of those imagined scenarios has so far been playing itself out.

As you said in the lawn analogy, "we could have easily imagined that people could be interested in lawns, but, feeling worse than disinterest in it ourselves, just never thought about the fact that we might change in that regard." Well, I'm one who would go ahead and imagine myself being someone who was interested in lawns even when I had no real interest at the time, especially if I saw that others older than me regularly start to become like that. If I weren't like this, then I suppose I wouldn't have tried much, or at least not effectively, to imagine what it would probably be like for me to have a kid, and I probably would have been more blown away by unexpected experiences. But that's how my mind works: I don't really have to try to do it, my mind just throws a bunch of scenarios at me with all sorts of variations, whatever the situation. It can make coming to a decision rather difficult for me, but when I finally do decide something, it is usually a pretty good choice.

It also helps me have a good idea of what to expect from a new situation, even a completely new one like parenting. I really wasn't all that surprised by the emotional experiences of having a child. I'm probably unusual in that, but I don't think I'm alone. I know I'm a little weird, but I don't think I'm that weird.

Now, I recognize that at least many parents, and maybe a very large majority (though I don't know of any rigorous surveys on this matter), were very surprised by what they felt, so much so that they now say to pre-parents "you can't know what it's like without being there, you'll be completely surprised by it." Since that is how most parents feel now that they are parents, obviously as pre-parents they did not know what to expect, so obviously most previous pre-parents were accurately described by the "you'll never know until" line. Which means that it is probably very likely that any given current pre-parent can be accurately described by that line.

I also admit that I couldn't have known for sure whether I would actually be surprised unless and until it actually happened to me. Without actually experiencing it, I could not have known for sure if my imaginings were accurate. It might have been the case that "you'll never know until" applied to me. But it turns out that I did have a pretty good idea of what to expect, enough that I now have to wonder about what all those parents who say "you'll never know until" were expecting. So (to tie all this back to the point of this thread), unless I see blatant signs that a pre-parent really is clueless (such as expecting that a two-year-old can be taught to mop a floor), I'll give the benefit of a doubt to someone who claims to know at least roughly what it will be like. Maybe they do. And if they don't (admittedly the more likely scenario), well, they'll find out for themselves soon enough. And, I do remember how annoying that line was for me when I was a pre-parent (especially given my previous experiences with my imagination).

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

DRFseven

Well, certainly, it is; it's an idiotic thing to say. I think maybe the original gripes about being pressured to have children and about being told by parents that only parents can know what it's like to have children became sort of amalgamated. People who think one thing don't necessarily think the other, and nobody here has indicated such a sentiment, have they? I'm tremendously sorry that some who want children can't have them.

Viti

Bullshit DRFseven....childless (or childfree) couples in this thread have been told they can never have the maturity of parents, can never feel as happy as parents, can never have some special kind of "parent only" love....it has been condenscending to say the least.

I don't want people to feel sorry for me, I DO NOT want people to look at me with that pity in their eyes like I can never be a whole person. I am happy with my life and have come to grips with my infertility....until people start mouthing off about how I should try harder, stop trying, adopt, whatever

I may never know what it's like to be a parent, but parents will never know the bond that is created between spouses when they look at each other and finally say "It's just me and you against the world for the rest our lives...that okay honey?" When most parents are alone with their spouse again in 20 years, a good majority will no longer know that person nor have anything to discuss...it happens time and time and time again. Raise your kids, love your kids, but don't make the rest of us feel like outcasts because we are not parents

alek0

DRFseven:
most people here have not expressed such sentiments, true. But this is something childless or childfree (I can't have kids and don't want them either) encounter on regular basis. I've even been told that my life is pointless if I don't have kids.

People on this board have expressed quite reasonable attitude. But majority of people in real life don't. What I mind about some of those is:

1) They keep telling everybody that having kids is the only right choice. Kind of similar to rabid fundies and "our god is the only god".
To this group belong statements like "you cannot know what happiness is without having kids", "your life is not fulfilled without having kids" etc.

2) They are absolutely unable to dampen their enthusiasm and keep talking about their kids most of the time. If I can supress the need to talk about quantum dots which I find far more fascinating than whether little Johny has diarrhea, they should be able to control their need to talk about kids.

Why is talking about kids different than talking about other topics which do not interest the person you are talking to?

3) Statements of the type "you are selfish not to have kids". As many of you have pointed out, there is nothing noble about having kids. From what I've seen, people have kids for the sake or fulfilling their wish to have kids and that's that. Survival of the species, kids are our future etc. are not the reasons but excuses given to justify the choice which is ultimately no less selfish than the choice of not having kids.

4) Dogmatic statements about child raising. One does not need to be a parent to be able to judge pros and cons of certain medical decisions for example. One does not need to be a parent to know that there is more than one way to achieve something.

I agree that I cannot know what does it feel like to be a parent. Feelings are not objective. I also doubt that every parent has identical feelings towards offspring. But on the objective issues of child care, I don't see why a non-parent couldn't know just as much. Literature is there, apply critical thinking and there you are. Everything may not work out in practice the way it does in theory, but that's the fact of life applicable to many other areas. It is naive to expect that everything will go "by the book". It is equally wrong for parents to make generalizations based on their experiences with one or two or few more kids. Very limited sample, so it is entirely unscientific to make statements taht smth. which works for your kids is general way to do it.

echidna

This is so true. I think I am quite good with my friends' kids. And in return, there have been times when mothers will patronisingly put me down with these sentiments.

Gee, I can be quite happy with myself and quite satisfied with my life, until 3 mothers decide to let me know that I shouldn't be.

I've felt anti-asian racism firsthand many times, and I'll tell you what, the deliberate hurt doesn't feel much different.

Ms. Siv

Going by that logic. You cant discuss anything. You cant discuss AIDS unless you are an AIDS patient. You cant discuss abortion unless you've had an abortion, you cant discuss black holes and quasars unless you've seen one experienced one (whatever that means! ), cant discuss American politics unless you're an American politician, cant discuss Sep 11th unless you were a victim or a perpertrator ......
It is ridiculous !

Of course I can imagine what it must feel like to be a parent. We often feel a fraction of that feeling for close nephews and nieces. I know I've been around since pregnancy for my sister's kids and I absolutely adore my neice and nephew. To an extent, I discuss their antics and first words and actions etc with collegues/friends and with my parents (as grandparents, they lead the show here!).
I dont feel icky changing their diapers or cleaning them (although I do for my brother's kids ... IMO the mother's genetic relatedness is more important ... but thats another story!) or when they drool all over the place etc .
It doesn't take an Einstein to extrapolate.
BTW there's nothing magical about that feeling. Its a result of genetic programming. It pays our genes to feel that way, so we do !

But so many other things are equally (if not more) awe inspiring and numinous. Its wrong to conclude that nothing else can be worthwhile.

- Sivakami.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Sivakami S ]</p>

MassAtheist

That is ridiculous. I don't think anyone suggested you couldn't discuss what it is like to be a parent, but you cannot know what it's like unless you are one. In the same way as you cannot know what it is like to have AIDS unless you have it. I can only imagine the feelings associated with having AIDS. I can't know those feelings without having the disease.


Agreed.

MassAtheist

Maybe not unimaginable, but unimagined. We have all experienced a wide range of emotional responses so I don't know if anything experienced in this life could be called "new". For me, the intensity of the feelings is certainly "new" and not anything that I had predicted. That is, I knew I would feel strongly about my kids, but I didn't understand how strongly.

I am trying to think of another experience that I have had that I could relate to having kids. The closest I can think of is having a younger sibling (without the competition/fighting/etc...). I don't think that this adequately explains everything either. Can any other parents think of any similar experience?

DRFseven

OK, I've asked you where someone expressed those sentiments and you've yelled "Bullshit!" What does that mean?

No one here said it, did they? Are you interpreting peoples' expressions of joy in their children as being directed against you? If you're just venting about what other people outside the forum say and do, that's fine, because this is a support forum; however, when several of us have expressed support for people wishing or wanting to remain childless, you didn't seem to like that either. What gives here?

DRFseven

As, Mass noted, ridiculous! How many times have I pointed out that it has nothing to do with discussion or interest?

You're talking about behaviors that usually are concomitant with having children (enjoying them and caretaking issues), but you're not talking about the parent/child bonding phenomenon. This is a huge thing; next to things like oxygen, water, and food, it's THE most necessary part of a developing child's life, so you can expect that it will be correspondingly dramatic in the life of the parent, though the feelings of the child for the parent and the parent for the child are different. This evolutionary thing that happens to the parents had to be much greater than that of any other animal because of the huge and long-term parental investment required in order for the child to survive to reproductive age.

Did I ever say anything about magical? We're talking physiology and psychology here.

Yes, so it's a good thing no one has asserted such a thing.