RED DAVE

From Magus55:

So, this loving being allegedly sent my great-grandmother, a sincerely believing, loving, observant Jew, who died, in terror, in a gas chamber, at the hands of Christians, to hell. Whereas, if one of those Nazis repented, he got to spend eternity on the beach in heaven.

It is difficult ot imagine a more disgusting belief system. I look forward to your reply.

RED DAVE

Calzaer

...especially since Jesus never (even to this day) gave the Jews any reason to believe he was the messiah, being that I can't name a single OT messianic prophecy he fulfilled. AND he told them that their laws were stupid and didn't need to be followed anymore. Somehow I think that if a guy named, say, Josh, came down today and told the Christians that Paul's laws were revoked, the Christians wouldn't believe him either. Even if his followers, decades later, claimed he rose from the dead after being fried in the electric chair.

RED DAVE

From Magus55:

Actually, very few Jews are messianic. And most of them have the decency to keep quiet about it. I would love to hear the story about how you came to embrace the xtian pack of lies. I need a good laugh after what you said about my great-grandmother.

I notice that you answered my question about hell entirely in the abstract. How about having the decency to tell me why my great-grandmother (and about 1/3 of my family), who couldn't escape from the Nazis, xtians most of them, had to go to hell because she wouldn't accept the religion that most of them, including Hitler, professed. Just talk about how my great-grandmother is burning in hell right now while, maybe the Nazi who pulled the lever on the gas chamber, and maybe later repented tearfully, went to heaven.

RED DAVE

EstherRose

I am sorry for your great-grandmother. It is a difficult thing to accept. I can also understand why you may feel hostile towards anyone who says this. I too have lost relatives who were not saved. It is a bitter thing for me to think of them suffering in hell. Unfortunately that is the choice they made. It is also difficult to think of Nazis who may have professed true faith as being in heaven. The Germans and Nazis will have to account for their crimes someday, unless they accept the Lord.

Corrie ten Boom was a Christian in a concentration camp. She suffered for years like everyone else. Many years later, during a Christian lecture she gave, she spotted one of the guards from the camp, one who was particularly loathsome. Afterwards he approached her to thank her for her lecture and testimony. I do not think he recognized her. He reached a hand out to shake her hand. She said it was absolutely the hardest thing she ever had to do. She did it and was overwhelmed with the grace and majesty of the Holy Spirit.

God never promised us our lives on earth would be pleasant ones, only that our eternal life would be magnificent, if we believe in Jesus.

You asked me, and I told you what I believe. I am sorry that my words offend you.

EstherRose

Who do you feel you need to prove deeds to? The deeds are a result of the changed life. It is not something you do, it is something God does with us. God knows who is saved and who isn’t. If we want to know, besides asking someone, we can see it in their fruits. But it isn’t a requirement of being saved.

Here are some. Because prophecy is not my strong point, especially relating to the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, I had to look this up. I have a list of 45 of the most important prophecies in the OT that Jesus fulfilled. I’ll post that tomorrow. It’s just too late now.

Jesus’ birth
Isaiah 9
2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [1]
a light has dawned.

John the Baptist
Isaiah 40
3 A voice of one calling:
"In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD [1] ;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God. [2]
4 Every valley shall be raised up,
every mountain and hill made low;
the rough ground shall become level,
the rugged places a plain.
5 And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all mankind together will see it.
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Is:40
9 You who bring good tidings to Zion,
go up on a high mountain.
You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, [3]
lift up your voice with a shout,
lift it up, do not be afraid;
say to the towns of Judah,
"Here is your God!"

Micah 5
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [2] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins [3] are from of old,
from ancient times. [4] "

Jesus’ death
Psalm 22
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [3] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

Is: 52
13 See, my servant will act wisely [2] ;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him [3] -
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness-
15 so will he sprinkle many nations, [4]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

Messianic prophesies in the Old testament

Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [3] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [4] will call him Immanuel. [5] 15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Is 9
4 For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.
5 Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, [2] Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Is 32
1 See, a king will reign in righteousness
and rulers will rule with justice.

Is 53:
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [1] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [2]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [3] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [4] and be satisfied [5] ;
by his knowledge [6] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [7]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [8]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Zechariah 12
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [1] of grace and supplication. They will look on [2] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Javaman

Not wanting to speak for someone else but I can say for myself that I'm offended not at your words but at your doctrine. I think the emotion (?) I most closely associate with dealing with Christians such as yourself is bewilderment. Good or bad... doesn't matter, just believe.

Those that don't believe in your particular god aren't angry at how he behaves.

Javaman

EstherRose, you might want to read up on Messianic Prophesy a bit. I'm no Christian so it didn't surprise me that Jesus didn't really fulfill much but I was surprised at the apologetics. These three threads may help you (the last was one I started that didn't go very far and I didn't know enough to prod it).

Are these failed prophecies?

Is Isaiah 7:14 a messianic prophecy?

Messianic Prophesies

Not enough coffee in me to re-invent any wheels.

EstherRose

Here is the quote from 4 different versions of the bible. I assume you are using the NKJV because that seemd the closest to your quote. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. (NIV)

1 Peter 1
17And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; (NKJV)

1 Peter 1
17 If you (1) address as Father the One who (2) impartially (3) judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves (4) in fear during the time of your (5) stay on earth; (NASB)

1 Peter 1
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: (KJV)

RED DAVE

From EstherRose:

My experience is that when people say they're sorry and do nothing about it, myself included, they're not really sorry. What is happening is really a shrug of the shoulders.

If there were some compassion, you might begin to examine your belief system, which is, to put it mildly, sadistic.

My great-grandmother can't forgive the guards in the camp. She's dead. Frankly, if i were in ten Boom's position, I would be inclined to homicide. I don't think that the kind of "forgiveness" that lets mass murdereRs run around free is worth much in the scheme of things.

I ask you, as a human being, xtians, to examine what you believe. Either, you are worshipping a cosmic sadist, and that is warping you. Or you yourself are a sadist. A proper human response to the Holocaust would have been: what can I do to help? Few xtians did that.

George Bush is the perfect xtian: a coward and a mass murderer.

RED DAVE

winstonjen

In which case they get away scot free. Great justice system you got there, with parking violations equivalent to mass murder. :boohoo: