CX

I think you dramatically overstate the case and miss the underlying issues. It is in human nature for the strong to subjegate the weak, this has always and will always occur. Religion is a convenient tool for that aim, but it is not the only one. Stalin misused a wholly atheistic philosophy to justify his atrocities. People have misused Darwinism to support xenophobia and eugenics. Science itself has been abused by one group to overpower another repeatedly. It is naive to think that religion is the root cause of the atrocities acted out in its name. The root cause is people. Personally I think religion is good and beneficial for many people, even if I reject its truth. Anything can be misused by people whose intentions are evil. The discovery of the atom and atomic power was a great step forward for mankind. The use of that discovery for the construction of weapons of mass destruction was a step back. It's very nearly a zero sum game with humanity only making excruciatingly slow and halting progress all the while keeping itself on the brink of self-destruction. It is short-sighted of us to blame religion for that. If it weren't religion it would be something else.

CX

This was a brilliant essay, Peter. Would you or SecWeb mind if I archived it at my own site provided I gave appropriate credit and links?

NOGO

Hi Haran,

First I would say that intelligence alone never lead anyone away from religion. There is a complete emotional and social aspect to this. Many believers are in some kind of community of believers and the community is very important to them. They can't live without it. Asking these people to stop believing on account of some intellectual arguement is simply a NOGO. It is like asking them to break away from the community, lose their friends and also lose the security of being on God's side not to mention being on a mission from God himself.

So arguements, no matter how good, simply wont do.

"People never cease to amaze me."
My guess is that nothing really amazes you except the bible.

Now the question is this. Why does a person like me not want to join a community of believers, find lots of friends in Jesus, have a mission from God, live in the security of knowing that God is on our side, and look foreward to eternal life in bliss ????

I react to this in the same way a Christian would react if he were offered the same deal but in a Muslim community. Thanks, but no thanks.

It is wrong to say that both sides have strong arguements. You are simply bias on this. I have yet to see a "strong arguement" for Christianity.

If you have one or can point me to one I will certainly look at it.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

Peter Kirby

Thanks. I would not mind if you archived it so long as you noted that the piece was a message board post and not a polished essay. And I would like a link to earlychristianwritings.com.

A few typos need to be corrected, including:

"I have support Pepsi" -&gt; "I support Pepsi"

"which serves as a shared reference point" -&gt; "which serve as a shared reference point"

"compromosing" -&gt; "compromising"

"additionaly" -&gt; "additionally"

"positvely" -&gt; "positively"

best,
Peter Kirby

Methodissed

Why sway a theist? Because superstitious belief stifles rationale thought. Our world has serious problems that need real-world solutions. Hope, worship and prayer do nothing, other than encouraging inaction. We need rational thinkers to make informed decisions on issues such as world overpopulation (birth control), sexual mutilation (circumcision), the rights of the dying (physician-assisted suicide), priest pedophilia, stem cell research, the right to divorce, etc.

Yes, change is up to the individual. The problem is that people are being duped by the church and its followers. People cannot possibly make an informed decision if they are uninformed. I'm simply proposing the need for a historically and factually accurate resource that is accessible and easy to read. Interesting that it has created such controversy.

Haran

Funny, but I think that atheism can cause many problems in the world as well. I happened to read a story that really got my blood boiling this afternoon... A teen in Germany who happened to enjoy violent video games (which many people of religion are trying to eliminate, btw) killed 13 teachers and several others at a school. Just like the two shooters at Columbine, I think he had no belief in God or any ultimate punishement for his actions. This allowed him to get angry enough to go shoot up these people he hated and then kill himself, neatly escaping the hands of his would-be earthly punishers to the blissful nothingness where nothing he did makes any difference. Just like the kids who shot up Columbine. BTW, many Christians have attempted to get violent video games, etc., banned or eliminated. You see, Meth, it ain't just Christians and people of religion who do bad things to the world like giving us extrememely violent movies like Natural Born Killers and similar video games that desensitize people to the horror and evil of killing others.

I feel that I am usually a relatively unbiased and fair Christian in most matters, but I will never yield to this kind of irresponsible drivel that religion is somehow an evil in this world.

Yeah... We're all a bunch of "duped" zombies. Come on, Meth... My church, for one, due to the area, is filled with many Engineers (such as myself) and Doctors, among others types. They have every bit as much reasoning ability as you and yet they choose to come to church.

If you really propose the following for your book:

Evolutionary reasons for the human tendency toward religious belief
History of religion and religious beliefs
Similarities between different religions
How the bible came to be
Biblical atrocities, contradictions, nonsense, etc.
Historical Christian behavior and their impact on humanity and civilization
Correlation between bible verses, papal dictates and church teachings on Christian behavior
Negative impact of Christianity on humanity and society today
Future consequences of living in a superstitious world

...then I don't think you really want a "historically and factually accurate resource". It seems that what you want is a "see-it-my-way" book which encourages atheism.

If you truly want an unbiased resource, then you had better include all sides, even the ones you don't agree with. Only then, can a person make a truly informed decision.

Haran

Haran

I can agree up to here, but there's also the supernatural/spiritual side.

Um... My comment was meant for the website link because there are many other better and less biased resources out there. Otherwise, I'll just assume your comment was a good natured dig...

Why? I don't know... Only you can answer that. As I mentioned to Peter, it's between you and God. If you don't believe in a God, then you've already made your decision and joining a community of believers shouldn't matter to you.

You have every right.

I don't believe my comment was wrong, nor do I believe it was biased. I see many strong arguments for the historicity of much of the Bible. I see some rather powerful arguments for the existence of God. Ok, you can have the creationism stuff.

I'm sure you've seen the same ones I have. For some reason, you didn't see their merit or possibility. I did. If you already do not believe, then I doubt any argument is good enough, just as you said. Ultimately, it's up to you (getting in a little Pascal's wager there... ).

Haran

James AD

Does anyone know what the religious views of the shooters at Columbine were, or of the gunman in Germany? All I have ever heard is speculation, like Haran's above.

The logical thing to do, for someone who doesn't believe there is an afterlife, is to make friends and try to live a long and healthy life. Killing teachers is a very irrational act.

James

Haran

You're right. It's my speculation. However, it seems relatively obvious to me given the evidence in these cases. We have as much or more evidence for these as people have for blaming Arabs and Islam for the atrocity of Sept. 11th.

...that is unless you're very, very unhappy and all you want do is get even with those you hate and leave this world. This seems to have been what these killers were thinking, unfortunately.

I hope most believe like you.

Unlike Meth, I realize that the religious as well as non-religious are capable of being cruel and of causing world problems. I think many other atheists realize this as well. Atheism provides no better answer to the problems of life.

Haran

NOGO

You're an old hand at this, Haran. (to your credit).
I never said that any arguement is not good enough because I do not believe PERIOD. To my way of thinking this is the lot of believers. No matter what the evidence at the end believers wont change their minds because they depend, emotionally, on their beliefs.

You made a claim that there is out there "strong" arguements in farvor of Christianity. If that is true then show me or point me to something.