Amos

Hi Jon, how can you be member number 6029 if the official member count is only at 5993 when I posted this? Are you for real or just a negative energy emerging from Barny?

Datheron

JonAkbarSpielberg,

I hope this little digression doesn't hijack the thread. If it does, well... <bows to moderators>

A part of human life is conflict, competition, and confrontation. Really, as long as more than one opinion exists, there will be dissent amongst the people. Is this a good thing? Well, if we didn't have conflict, then that would imply that we'd agree on the every issue, which would strip us of any individuality...a boring world indeed.

Eh - do we want that? Who here likes his TV Discovery/TLC + Sesame only?

<silence>

Just ignoring the bad won't make it go away, you know. Yea, we can concentrate on some of the good too; a few threads here tried to summarize that, although one would probably have a higher chance of success on religious forums. The point, though, is that we aren't getting "happily along" - atheists often point out the discrimination that they receive because they do not believe in a God, and I recently read an article linked by someone here which has Bush Sr. saying that atheists do not deserve to be citizens. Now, how on earth can we get along with statements like that?

And here we are exposing every single one of these "bugs". However, much like Windows, a "better alternative" does exist - atheism, or in our analogy UNIX/Linux. To take this analogy one step further, how would the UNIX users like it if the Windows users start swamming all over the place, try to get them to "convert" to Windows?

[qipte]<strong>Some believe Science is the answer but if you look @ it closely they are also a religion within themselves. They themselves don't know the asnwer but CLAIM that they do. Take science from 50yrs from now and it was TOTALLY different. To me science also good to an extent until we try to label it the saviour of mankind. It is nothing more is a guess made by someone who is "supposedly" smarter than you and his/her guess is better than you.</strong>[/quote]

A complete and utter strawman. Who said that science was a "savior" of any kind? Where on earth do you get such things?

So once again, you just ask us to sweep away on all the little blemishes, so we can focus on the good parts of things. I, however, am wary of what those little blemishes can manifest into. This is precisely the philosophy that allowed Germany to start WWII.

ju'iblex

Seeing as Blu now couldnt be bothered to argue his side of the debate anymore, it seems futile to respond. But futile is my middle name.

Oh come on, to deny religion is a reason for human atrocities is both naive and myopic. yes, it can be about one person just wanting power and control, but that doesnt mean a leader doesnt believe what they are saying. They do it because they believe their cause is right. They believe their religion is right and therefore they are willing to kill and die for their religion. Religion is a reason. i have argued this point a number of times already, but on all occasions you havent bothered to respond.

and im not even going to start on the touching book idea you have going.

so we dont agree with your point of view, and so you leave. falsehoods and misconceptions? honestly. youre showing your bias.

i must say, im rather disappointed. Yes, my arguements may not have had excerpts from books and statistics, but then again, where were yours? You didnt show any evidence of reading up on psychology either.

And then to render my points invalid because of what you see as "biased" is again disappointing.
Perhaps you should try and see things from different perspectives.

im sorry you couldnt see it from my point of view, whether you agree or not.

For JonAkberSpielberg:

i have asked but have yet to be given any positive points. perhaps you could show me a couple?

And im inclined to disagree with the "only be remembered for good". What about Hitler, he isnt remembered for bringing Germany out of the Depression and giving it a stable economy, i believe he was famous for being a Nazi. But hes just one of many examples.

Answerer

Well juiblex, I don't mean all muslims but some, as for others, they have a sort of mixed of ideas and doubts about their Koran. Thats they don't totally believe in everything the koran has to say. You said that all religions condemned theirs in some way, well, I think it is you who are generalizing things, not me. Religions like Pagan gods of the past don't actually condemned other non-believers, instead they respected each others.
As for you Blu, I don't expect you to be a coward running away from accepting new alternative thinkings. Since you claim to have read on psychology, so let talk about it. You said that the leaders of the montheistic religions is not responsible for the mass killings but if the doctrine is not there in the first place what is there for them to use.Furthermore, the most religious doctrine are the most powerful tool in controlling people, not McDonalds, racism or anything else have a bigger impact than it. Obviously, if religions do not exist, then there will be less tools to control people isn't it.
Therefore, I don't know why you insist that the existence of religions don't make a difference at all. For indeed, it does for there is a big gap that exists between the number of people controlled if religion exists and not. Perhaps the existence of religions doesn't affect the nature of man, but surely it do affect the effect of the manipulative power on mankind as a whole.

ju'iblex

Mixed ideas and doubts, im going to ask for some examples here. its not that i dont believe it happens, im just a little skeptical of how common you make it out to be.
No, i said religions condemn other religions at least once somewhere in their teachings. i did not single out Muslim. Im not sure which pagan religions you are referring to, so i wont argue that point.

Blu

DARN THIS FORUM SUCKED ME IN AGAIN!!!


DarkBronzePlant hello,

Where oh where do I begin?

DarkBronzePlant types:

Knives/computers do not tell us that war should be waged against non-believers. Religion does.

Knives/computers do not tell us that we should be concerned with what people do in their private lives, when it doesn't affect us. Religion does.

Knives/computers do not tell us that we should kill people if they act on certain impulses, even if such actions harm no one. Religion does.


My response:

This assures my belief that my responses are bing ignored.

Religion does nothing. Religion is inanimate like knives, computer, books, etc. Then someone comes along. They have an agenda. They pick up a knife or a religious idea. Mind you, religion does not have a voice...does not have a mind of its own.

The person has a choice to use religion to enrich their lives or twist it around and use it as a scapegoat much like a person has a choice to use a butter knife to butter their bread or to turn around and stab someone with it. IS THE INANIMATE OBJECT TO BLAIM? If so, you are saying it has a mind of its own and has power to cast a spell on the mind of whoever touches it.

I say, tool-inanimate objects, scriptures, books, etc do not have any power. I say, the mind of the individual has an agenda.... the individual is bent with hatred and will use anything from their culture to try to rally people to this person's so-called cause. If not religion, McDonalds might do well enough. People do this all the time in order to try to justify what they are doing. They get other people to believe that what they are doing is written in scripture.

Is it the inanimate object that makes them do it? Or do people have a mind of their own? People can make anything mean anything. Happy people who have no anger towards another group most likely will not become murderous. Angry-aggressive individuals who have lived in war torn countries as children and who have witnessed murders of their families and friends are going to be a little on the "off" side. These people are most likely to take the religion of their particular culture and bend the beliefs to justify their hatred.

So religion is separate from the mind and will of a human being.

Answerer

It seems that Blu ignored the both of us, maybe he is not so open-minded after all. Nevertheless, Juiblex, you said that you want example of muslims doubting their own Koran doctrines. Well, the first one is regarding the Jews and christians, the non-fundamental muslims believe that both the Jews and christians will go to heaven with them as well , although to them, the Jews and christians are still considered to be 'mislead'. In addition, some of the muslims also believes that the past intereption of jihads is wrong, they believe jihad to be a non-violent defence of Islamic doctrine, not through wars or terrorism. Next, some of the muslims also believes the some of the verses in the koran are symbolic, for example the creation process etc.
Thats all that I think is the best examples so far.

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Answerer ]</p>

DarkBronzePlant

Just don't try to fight it...
Hate to break it to you, but just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they aren't listening to you.
Right now I'll point out the obvious: your metaphor only extends so far, even based on those few sentences above. People can, literally, pick up a knife, or pick up a computer. People cannot "pick up" an idea like religion. Religion is not an "aninimate object." It is an idea, a dogma. Itexists in the minds of people.
It does not have a mind of its own; agreed. It does not literally have a voice, either. However, it does state what is right or wrong. It does state how people should think, act, and behave. Do you disagree with that?
Using the term "casting a spell", of course, adds an air of absurdity to the notion. And no, I do not literally believe a spell is being cast.

I completely reject, however, the idea that people "use religion" to their own ends.

Books are irrelevant to this discussion. Sure, the bible, in its most common form, is a book. And that book, sitting there on the nightstand, as you indicate, has no power. In fact, it is that book itself that is more analogous to the knife. A person could choose to read it, to use it to start a fire in the fireplace, or whomp someone over the head with it.

Rather, it is that thoughts contained within that book. Thoughts that, really, have nothing to do with the book, because they existed before that book was printed, they can exist completely indepenent of books (i.e. on CD-ROM, via word of mouth, etc.) I'm not debating about books with you. I'm debating about thought, ideas, dogmas.
Yes!
Perhaps if most people were taught about McDonalds from easly childhood, were taught that eating McDonalds every day will get them into a magnificant heaven when they die (presumably of clogged arteries ), that anyone who ate Burger King should surely be stoned to death, etc, etc, that might be the case.
Okay, what I understand you to say here might be exemplified by, say bin Laden. Correct me if I am misrepresenting what you are saying. bin Laden has political interests in attacking America. So in order to rally the troops, he tells a bunch of Muslims that, essentially, Allah demands that they give their lives in a massive fight against America. Thus misrepresenting what Islam actually says.

If this is basically what you are saying, then I agree to some extent. Definitely some people try really, really hard to find their own interpretations within holy books, and then use those interpretations to justify their ends.

But then, consider just how hard bin Laden had to try to find this justification with a book that praises Muslims who fight the "infidels" to the death, and promises them 70+ virgins in heaven after their glorious deaths...

And at the same time, for example,there are many in this country who hate homosexuals. Many, in fact, who would kill someone because they are gay. Why? Because the bible tells them to. These people have been taught that gays are abominable, and are not worthy to live. Sure, some are taught this by other people. A parent, maybe, or a preacher perhaps. But where does this idea ultimately come from? Straight out of the bible.
No. The inanimate object (i.e. the book on the nightstand) does not make them do anything. The ideas contained within do. Just as if you are taught all of your life that eating fatty foods is bad, and you thusly avoid eating fatty foods... the actual healthy-eating book didn't make you stop eating red meat. But the teachings that are contained within the book had a strong influence.

Likewise, if you are taught all your life that gays should be put to death, and then you eventually follow through, it isn't the book sitting on your nightstand that forced you to do it. But the ideas it contains had a strong influence.
Yes, minds that can be strongly influenced.
As they did when they created religion.
There is very little bending that needs to be done. Many religions--Islam and Christianity being two good examples--explicitly call for the killings of certain people.
Religion very, very strongly shapes the mind and will of many human beings. Do you disagree?

ju'iblex

Nevertheless, you are still yet to give me any actual evidence.

Answerer

What kind of evidence you want, newspaper cutting or media records? To tell you that the truth, the media are unreliable, thats I don't use their information. Futhermore, I don't think you trust website too. So, what you want? I have told you what I heard and saw but you enjoy carrying on being skeptic.