Not really. Not the ones I know. They still support science, yes with the idea that some things science will still discover. Don't you think there is still science left to be discovered?

Bullshit. I can see the stars. I cannot concieve that a omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipowerful god had to kill himself to stop himself from having wrath towards us.
I do not believe full moons make emergency rooms more active. I do not believe that the stars dictate my life. I do not believe there is an invisible big man up there who doesn't care if I kill you, only whether or not I believe in him. As ridiculous as astrology is, it makes FAR more sense then Christianity. Sorry. This is beating a dead horse. If you can't see what I mean now, oh well.

But not for that reason. I read cards to get an insight into a situation I may not have had before. I use a map to get to a store.

Your question would be like me asking you: which would you use to find a new grocery store? A map or a calculus textbook?

Who said it did? I think you have a preconceived notion of what I am talking about in mind, and nothing I will say will chage that. So be it.

Bored now.

jess
ANSIMC

jess wrote:

quote:

one would have to conclude that Wicca is internally inconsistent as a world-view.

Could you clarify for me?

jpbrooks:

Sure. If Wicca is no more than a "hodge-podge" of religions, (which I claim it isn't), it could be nothing other than an inconsistent world-view.

jess wrote:

They both have elements in common with the Old Ways, neither is a 'rip off' or a 'ressurection'. Wicca has much in common with Christianity, just sweeter and more flexible.

jpbrooks:

And, like most, (if not all), other religions and world-views, they both have differences as well as similarities. For example, (and without getting into the tiresome issue of which religion is "better"), each would assign a different value/disvalue to the "sweetness" and "flexibility" of a world-view.

jess wrote:

I hope there was no slight taken. None was meant.

jpbrooks:

No problem. Again, I stand corrected.

jp: what do you think Wicca is?

Which reminds me of an old conundrum: if Wicca indeed teaches that adherents have direct control over things -- if the success of their spells is not at the mercy of a "middleman" deity -- then the belief system would seem to be falsifiable in a way that Christianity, for example, is not. Christians have a ready escape if their requests are denied ("God did answer my prayers -- and He said 'no'"), and hence they can cling to their belief in God through all manner of disappointments. But how can Wiccans remain Wiccans in the (presumably common) event that a spell fails over and over again?
Most people have a basic misunderstanding of how magic is worked or applied to daily life. I can’t speak from anything other than my own experience and therefore I will only give my understanding and how, in my exploration of religion, I learned about the use of magic. First of all, the pagan/witches I know don’t believe they have power over anything, other then themselves. Ritual is more about creating the proper environment mentally, to achieve a goal, then “magically” creating something out of nothing. Every ritual I have ever participated in has been for self-healing in the sense of ridding oneself of negative thoughts, emotional baggage, bad habits, etc. But any intelligent person understands that actions must accompany desires for a positive outcome to be achieved. Passivity just won’t do.
I have never been of the understanding that if you sprinkle a little lavendar under your pillow at night that your prince will come the next day or something goofy like that, but that there is a definite path to achieve a specific end. There are also many caveats that go along with learning about ritual/magic. Certainly, some Wiccans/pagans believe that the “spell” is what makes the difference, but my understanding is more that the mental energy that goes into something is what decides the outcome. Often times changing an aspect of a spell is more directly related to changing an aspect or action within ones self that will be beneficial to a specific and desired outcome.

I don’t use ritual as some sort of superstitious mumbo-jumbo none sense that is going to create a material reality, but rather as a meditative time to focus on my inner most desires so that I may manifest them outwardly. I really enjoy candles and incense, herbal baths and mythological lore. I don’t believe in an existent god/goddess but they are symbolic of the different aspects of my personality.
Now, as to the more recent trendiness of Wicca – well, most witches (and the two are not the same) would say this is good and bad. Good, because it makes it easier to come out during the day or night without this “satanic” threat looming and the dangers that go along with fear and hatred.
When I first started exploring outside of Christianity I found myself drawn to it – for many reasons. One is because I needed to find a place where my femininity was not dirty and weak. Two is because I wanted to be able to identify with others experiencing the same kind of feelings. Three, well I had certain experiences in my life that required a deeper explanation and I searched many avenues to reconcile those questions and this was one path of exploration. As a woman, I really wanted to have permission to feel smart, strong and sexy without it being seen as wanton demonic possession. Later I learned, that I did not need anyone’s permission to feel this way or be who I am. It was a stepping-stone and a really enriching part of my life’s exploration. It was a personally empowering time. I made many good friends who will be life long companions and confidants. Also, and this is the vanity speaking in me, there is a sense of power that goes along with it. People react to you differently if they believe you to be a “witch.” To see a priest quiver in his shoes by your presence is a pretty cool feeling, considering my Catholic background. Finally, it’s pretty damn fun too and my fiancé never complained about participating in a sexual ritual (only practiced between him and I). I love nature and am in awe of it and I would like to think that there is something more then what I can see with my eyes, or touch with my hands, smell with my nose, hear with my ears or perceive with my mind. Maybe that’s all there is – but half the fun is in discovering otherwise.

I would say that I have outgrown it in many ways and I certainly believe myself to be an atheist at this juncture of my life. I am better for having walked that path and I have some damn HOT and sexy shoes and a few temptress like dresses too. It really helped me get over some of my Christian engrained phobias about life and womanhood and helped me along the path of atheism.
My education in the world continues and although I will probably never obtain a degree in Physics or even begin to understand Quantum Mechanics, I try my best.

My experience has been that life is both a combination of light and dark, good and evil, beauty and sorrow. Sometimes you have to kick a little ass any religion or philosophy that teaches you not to once in a while is absent from reality.

Science is a wonderful thing and certainly most of it is far beyond my limited understanding do to my limited knowledge. But life needs a little fantasy too – just as long as you remember it’s nothing more then fantasy

Brighid

Now, about Tarot cards … I have used them many times – not because the cards come out and say – Brighid – THIS is going to happen. But often times, they reveal a part of a problem or a situation that I had not considered before. Generally it is nothing more then an insight to something that is on my mind. This is all they should be used for, although sometimes more accurate things may be revealed.

I have an uncanny sense about people. I have made predictions about a person I have just met that have come true to the letter - many, many times. Every single one of my friends makes it a point to have their newest or perspective love interest pass the “brighid” test. Even my attorney has trusted my abilities so much that she would ask before a case what the outcome would be because so many times I would say things will go our way today or they will not.
I have had “psychic” experiences that have literally stopped me in my tracks and were so strong that they caused me to be physically ill for a time. People see this a “witchy” or something else like that.
I don’t believe that these things are “supernatural” in any way shape or form. I believe them to be completely natural, “gifts” that we all posses or can acquire. Science simply can’t verify those things yet. Once, it could not verify the existence of the atom either, but I have confidence that one day these kinds of things will be proven or disproved.

Things like astrology, tarot card reading, etc. are not meant to be absolutes – just measures or instruments to guide or to be comforts to someone. There is a book I have at home and I can’t remember the authors name – but my mother bought it along time ago – either Love Signs or Sun Signs. I am a Virgo and the description of the Virgo in this particular book is almost precise when it comes to describing me. I use to have a roommate that has the exact birth date as I do and she has many of the same attributes. When I met my fiancé I read him those chapters over the phone so he knew what he was in store for, then I read the Aries section to allow him a chance to verify or deny his personal attributes as described in this book. He is quite the Aries! My son – a Libra is very much a Libra child.

Now, I cannot prove – because I have not devised or discovered a method to scientifically prove or disprove the accuracy of the claims in this particular book. In the instances of myself, my roommate, my fiancé and my child – the book is right on, using the tenants of Astrology. I am sure that there an equal number or instances in which the descriptions are totally inaccurate as well, but maybe further investigation is warranted.

Unfortunately, too many people look to religion and it’s aspects such as baptism, prayer, magic, tarot, astrology, etc. to do the work they should be doing for themselves, and not as tool to fuel the necessary changes within themselves to facilitate a desired outcome. There are no real quick fixes or magical potions or blanket salvations. There are simply tools and avenues to explore and use or discard.
I enjoy having my Tarot Cards read, I enjoy “reading” people, I enjoy ritual and nothing more and nothing less. Some people says this makes me a “witch” – well, okay then. I don’t care what other people define me as, because I am the only one responsible for defining myself.
And yes – there are Christian witches, and even pagans and non-Christian witches have a difficult time understanding that – but that is for another day.
Sorry to leave you out there Jess!

Now, Miss Cleo - she is a hoot! Remember - for entertainment purposes ONLY!

Brighid

Hello, jess.

I'm sorry that it took so long to respond.

jess wrote:

jp: what do you think Wicca is?

jpbrooks:

I would define Wicca as an "earth religion", (i.e., a religion that holds that the earth is sacred and/or intimately connected with all life), that emphasizes the worshipper's connection with the "life force", (i.e., the "creative principle" in the universe that gives it its orderly "intelligent" characteristics), in nature, which is symbolized as various nature deities, (and ultimately as the Goddess and the God).

(For the record, I agree with Paganism's emphasis on the significance of nature, [and of the "life force", or whatever various Pagan groups choose to call it]. I just don't worship and revere nature as the Pagans do. But I respect the freedom of others to believe and worship whatever and however they so desire.)



[This message has been edited by jpbrooks (edited June 06, 2001).]

Brighid said: jess said: hmmmm....

you have no email listed, so I have to say this publically: It is cool to have you on board.

jp: I am confused--- your 'take' on Wicca doesn't really narrow it down much... How does that preclude them 'stealing' from other religions and not being "internally inconsistent as a world-view?"

Thanks

Jess,

Thanks - and I have emailed you privately! It's good to be here.

Brighid

Sure there is. But Pagans will often cling to things that Science has shown to have no validity, like astrology.




A Christian would say "I can see the bible". There's really not much difference here. Christians take it on faith that Jesus died for their sins, etc. etc.. However, believers in astrology believe it EVEN THOUGH there's no evidence to support it and much that disproves it.




That's good. Those are all baseless claims with no evidence to support them.

[/b]

Well, since you never answered the question in the first place, of course it is. Both are claims that have no good evidence to support them. The only thing that differentiates the one from the other is your own personal incredulty.




This begs the question, and assumes that the tool is indeed a useful one. One might as well make your decisions based upon words drawn from a hat.




Not at all. The object of the discussion here is pagans and wiccans. I've found that they often hold this irrational belief.

See the following:
http://www.skepdic.com/forer.html

This is the main reason why people feel astrological predictions apply especially to them. It's been demonstrated time and time again.




Further investigation has been done. We don't see a correlation between sun signs and occupations or interests any greater than chance. Of course, the astrologists then claim that this is because you need a "Full reading" to be accurate.

This begs the question though.. how did they determine the "rules" of astrology? If a controlled examination of people doesn't show any correlation between birth dates and particular traits, then why should one trust astrology as accurate?