Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yguy · 04-16-2003, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
Do you genuinely want to know? If I supply you with a fairly short post I have written on this topic before, will you actually take the time to read it, or would I be wasting my time?

I'll read it.

yguy · 04-16-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Until you provide some evidence that intelligence could arise from mere complexity, how is your own position based on anything but ignorant speculation?

You sure like the argument from ignorance, don't you?

I humbly submit myself as evidence that intelligence is an emergent phenomenon of the universe.

How is that evidence of intelligence having emerged from mere complexity?

Mageth · 04-16-2003, 07:49 PM

How is that evidence of intelligence having emerged from mere complexity?

Intelligence exists in the universe, god(s) do not exist, therefore intelligence is an emergent property of the natural universe.

You don't have to like it, but that's the cold, hard truth.

And, pray tell, explain to me how the presence of complexity and/or intelligence in the universe supposed to be evidence of an architect God, and your God in particular? Oh, I remember; it's derived from some old moldy religious myths that have managed to survive from antiquity and still infect the thinking of otherwise intelligent people.

Principia · 04-16-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Not even close, because it doesn't make sense to me.

Well, discussion over then; it's a done deal. If it doesn't make sense to yguy, it can't be true.

LOL. If only my debates were always this simple.

Let's see... yguy is already intellectually satisfied with Goddidit as an answer to all of his problems. So someone remind me again if he has anything else more profound to tell us?

yguy · 04-16-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Until then you're going to assume they're complex, I guess. :banghead:

No, I'm going to realize that those who say they are simple don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Quote:

So far the only reason you've given to believe intelligence is a naturally occurring product of complexity is your apparent belief that it could.

And the fact that intelligence arguably exists in the universe, and the best hypothesis we have for it getting here, IMO, is as an emergent property of the universe (I don't believe in gods and such, remember?)

Backing up your opinion with your opinion, huh? Wow, that's impressive.

yguy · 04-16-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
How is that evidence of intelligence having emerged from mere complexity?

Intelligence exists in the universe, god(s) do not exist, therefore intelligence is an emergent property of the natural universe.

You don't have to like it, but that's the cold, hard truth.

Does this guy have faith or what?

Quote:

And, pray tell, explain to me how the presence of complexity and/or intelligence in the universe supposed to be evidence of an architect God, and your God in particular?

You're not interested, so forget it.

caravelair · 04-16-2003, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
What it could possibly have been sufficient for escapes me.

it is an example of a complex system which occurred through natural processes, without need of a designer, which is sufficient to show that complexity does not require a designer.

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
This is intellectual presumption beyond belief. You think you understand gravity because you know some of its effects, which is like thinking you understand cars because you can drive one.

no, i understand gravity, because i have studied general relativity, which says that bodies with mass warp the spacetime around them. that is a simple thing, not a complex system. most forces vary by 1/r^2, and again, you will find no such simple rule in biology or in galactic dynamics, so these things are generally simpler than the complex systems we are talking about.

Mageth · 04-16-2003, 07:59 PM

No, I'm going to realize that those who say they are simple don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Then perhaps you'd be willing to post your understanding of the "complexity" of each of the fundamental forces of the universe so we can see if you know what the hell you're talking about.

Backing up your opinion with your opinion, huh? Wow, that's impressive.

And this comes from the guy who earlier said "Not even close, because it doesn't make sense to me. "

Does this guy have faith or what?

No faith, I've just learned to live in and accept reality.

You're not interested, so forget it.

In other words, "It makes sense to me"?

Principia · 04-16-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

yguy: Finally, let me add that even if one "kind" can evolve into another, my main objection is the idea tha Man evolved from lower primates, as the proclivities of Homo Sapiens have been at least as devolutionary as they have been evolutionary. There are still cultures extant which have yet to invent the wheel, because they are enmeshed in their environment the way animals are. If they share a common ancestry with Einstein and Newton, how is it that they appear to lack this creative spark? How is it that during the Renaissnce, there were cultures in which ritual cannabalism was taken for granted? How is it that Holland, after nurturing its own degeneracy for decades, is in danger of coming under sharia law?

Is yguy trying to say that he rejects the theory of evolution because of his emotional digust over the thought of being related to cannibals and undeveloped societies? LOL.

yguy · 04-16-2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

no, i understand gravity, because i have studied general relativity, which says that bodies with mass warp the spacetime around them.

Then you shouldn't have any problem telling me WHY this happens.

And I believe it was the author of the theory you have studied who said, "We don't know 1 millionth of 1% of anything" - not to mention, "God doesn't play dice with the universe."

Quote:

that is a simple thing, not a complex system. most forces vary by 1/r^2, and again, you will find no such simple rule in biology or in galactic dynamics, so these things are generally simpler than the complex systems we are talking about.

But again, it is the observed effects you are calling simple, not the force itself.

The problem is, while such forces have predictable effects our timeframe, that is no guarantee that they had the same effects 10,000 years ago. About a year ago on another board, someone posted an article raising the possibility that the speed of light is not constant - and just a few months ago I heard a physicist discussing it on NPR. Discovering the cause of such a change could throw a gigantic monkeywrench into the established scientific view of lots of things.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-16-2003, 07:49 PM	#103
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	How is that evidence of intelligence having emerged from mere complexity? Intelligence exists in the universe, god(s) do not exist, therefore intelligence is an emergent property of the natural universe. You don't have to like it, but that's the cold, hard truth. And, pray tell, explain to me how the presence of complexity and/or intelligence in the universe supposed to be evidence of an architect God, and your God in particular? Oh, I remember; it's derived from some old moldy religious myths that have managed to survive from antiquity and still infect the thinking of otherwise intelligent people.

04-16-2003, 07:59 PM	#108
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	No, I'm going to realize that those who say they are simple don't know what the hell they're talking about. Then perhaps you'd be willing to post your understanding of the "complexity" of each of the fundamental forces of the universe so we can see if you know what the hell you're talking about. Backing up your opinion with your opinion, huh? Wow, that's impressive. And this comes from the guy who earlier said "Not even close, because it doesn't make sense to me. " Does this guy have faith or what? No faith, I've just learned to live in and accept reality. You're not interested, so forget it. In other words, "It makes sense to me"?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.