DMB

In view of the French definition of atheist that I just quoted, I thought I'd better clarify the meaning of "nier" which is usually translated into English as "deny". I think it has a slightly different shade of meaning, however, and so I looked up its definition in the same French dictionary.

It said that it meant to reject (an account, a proposition or an existence) or to think or represent (an object) as non-existent or to declare something unreal. I think, therefore, that although that encompasses the sense in which many atheists would agree that they "deny god", it does not allow for the sense in which many theists say that atheists do so, meaning that they reject a god which they know very well exists.

Vylo

From what I can see there seems to be some contradicition on the scholoarly definition of atheist and atheism. I see it most often defined as the denial, but some dictionaries list it as without. Even the entymology doesn't seem to be cohesive entirely. "without god" is the broader term, as that also encompasses those who deny gods or deities.

There are also 2 distinct tupes of atheism, and from what I can see, negative atheism would fit "without god", while positive atheist would fit "denies god". So I do suppose that one could say babies are born negative atheists, and therefore are born atheists.

I will concede that babies are born atheist. I also think that from the research we have both done, that your definition of atheism is more inclusive, and less contradictory and therefore superior. So in short I will concede my error, atheism should be defined "without god"

Sorry if I gave you a hard time, but I had to be certain on this .

Llyricist

Oh rats, and after I went to the library and took pictures of the definitions in the OED Short Edition (two cinderblock volumes), which DID include "godless", though once with the moral perjorative attachment.
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlecraig/OED.jpg
The Random House Unabridged, which contained nothing but Theistic perjorative definitions.
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlecraig/RandomHouse.jpg
And the Merriam Webster Unabridged, which started with the Etymological definition we've ben asserting, but then in the main body of definitions sticking to the theistic perjoratives
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlecraig/MerriamWebster.jpg

JGL53

If I am both a convinced-beyond-any-reasonable-doubt philosophical materialist and metaphysical naturalist, does this encompass atheism necessary, or would I need to add that to my list of self-description?

Jobar

A fair question, that.

I would say that it *implies* atheism, but does not *encompass* it- as we have atheists who are not metaphysical naturalists. MN denies supernaturalism, but there are 'naturalistic pantheists' who posit that the natural universe may be viewed as God. (Me, for instance. I see MN as a subset of my own monistic idealism.)

JGL53

O.K., but some clarifying questions, if you will:

An atheist who is not a MN - such a person lacks belief in god or gods, but may have other supernatural or paranormal beliefs, like demi-gods, reincarnation, astrology, et al?

Could you expand on the idea that you view the universe as God, i.e., is the universe viewed as 'conscious' because there are emergent minds on earth and (perhaps) many planets which are within and therefore of the universe, or are you saying you view the universe itself as a single (self-)conscious entity?

And if the latter, what does this mean for you, as opposed to what one could call 'orthodox' metaphysical naturalism- philosophical materialism- atheism?

ScumDog

I don't know how people are having problems with the definitions of atheism and agnosticism. Maybe it's the dictionaries that put forth false definitions.

Vylo

It's due to theist bias as far as I can seee, from the definitions I looked up, atheist =immoral, which is certainly not always true.

joedad

Someone on these boards once commented that monotheists are 99.99999999 percent atheist because they only believe in one deity out of thousands. Reasonable?

ScumDog

Most assuredly, but they will deny it furverously