Jobar

Starboy, as practical people we need to distinguish between beliefs and actions.

If someone wants to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, despite all evidence to the contrary, this neither picks my pocket nor breaks my arm. I may be amused or chagrined that someone can hold what is to me an utterly nonsensical belief, but that belief in and of itself does me not the least harm.

Actions, on the other hand, are entirely different. If our Green Cheesist becomes involved in trying to have his crackpot theory taught in schools, and all evidence contrary to his madness suppressed, then he harms me, and society, and mankind in general, and I will act to oppose him.

The problem we in the US face is that so many attempt to 'push' creationism. Their actions, not their beliefs, are what we fight. We may both oppose their actions and simultaneously attempt to get them to change their beliefs in order to change their actions- but if they never acted on their beliefs I for one wouldn't give a damn what they thought.

Starboy

Hi Jobar,

IMO, in a diverse society such as ours, harmony could be achieved by tolerance. Such tolerance might be accomplished if all understood the importance of separation of church and state and all actively supported a secular society. Despite evidence to the contrary, proffered by such reasonable Christians as Seebs, I am deeply concerned with religion’s ability to play nice. Its history of "truth" mongering, intolerance, and its underlying disconnect with the modern world make me suspicious that it will ever be a good neighbor.

Starboy

pz

I disagree with this. At the very least, it's symptomatic of a problem that does do me harm -- that my neighbor could be ignorant and irrational. I object to the idea that a climate of unreason is harmless. It ain't.

seebs

If you can find a single person who is not both ignorant and irrational, I'll eat my hat.

It's a question of the specific ways in which we manage our irrationality and ignorance, and I think Jobar's right.

Starboy

A well educated person with a mental disorder. Seebs, would you like your hat with salt or pepper, or do you intend to eat it plain.

Starboy

[ December 22, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

seebs

And you're quite sure there's nothing this person is ignorant about? Comparative theology? World history? Local history? Medicine? Physics? Cosmology? What's been up with those Jones girls that they hardly ever talk to their mother any more?

We're all ignorant, in the grand scheme of things. We always see "obvious" truths in terms of which things we have known a long time, or are close to the core of our world model. People raised differently, even if they have no false beliefs, will know very different things.

I would be willing to bet that no one who has any beliefs at all has no false beliefs. (The qualifier is to rule out debates about whether or not newborns have false beliefs.)

Bubba

As a thiest lurking here during this discussion I have two things to say...

1. Scigirl, Rufus, My already high level of respect for both of you has seriously grown through reading this discussion. I'm glad to see again that you are both very open minded and tolerant.

2. I'm with Seebs-II is a place of diversity and varied viewpoints. Starboy, please DO NOT stop posting here or give up your viewpoint. Even though I am a thiest I'd rather have someone tell me that they think I'm dead wrong and argue with me (politely) than I would have them ignore me or talk about me behind my back.

Bubba

Starboy

Seebs, I do not disagree with your main point, but I believe you are erecting a "straw man" for me to knock down or at the very least changing the subject. Where are you going with this?

Starboy

seebs

I actually *do* feel that way, although a large portion of the intended point of the original post was that, if he *really* wants to oppose the beliefs of theists, he should go away.

Starboy

Thanks Bubba, I consider you to be one of the most open-minded theist posters on this board. No need to worry about me talking behind your back, or anyone else's for that matter.

Starboy