Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pug846 · 01-03-2002, 11:44 AM

Rhea said:

Quote:

But they didn't really do it for the glory of Atheism, or to promote atheism. But on the other hand, they kind of _did_, didn't they?

I think it would be false to say that Stalin, etc. killed because of atheism, etc. I do think it is valid to conclude that certain atrocities have been committed because of Christianity.

For instance, the crusades. It wasn�t that a group of people, who happen to be Christian, went out on a crusade. They went out on a crusade because they were Christian. That was a primary motivating factor in their decision. As far as I know, Stalin did not state because there is no God I believe that I ought to go kill lots of people. (Incidentally, I don�t think it is all that important what Stalin believed, but what most of his �followers� believed.) Atheism is NOT a philosophy or ideology. To blame Stalin�s atrocities on atheism is like claiming that since Stalin did not believe in Santa, he killed people. I think you can only blame the specific ideology, if it actually does encourage such horrible actions, not any belief that the individuals might have held. Christianity is (usually) an ideology for people.

Excreationist said:

(to nit pick)

Quote:

Evolution hadn't been invented yet..

�Evolution� in some sense had been known for quite a long time. The specific mechanism of natural selection wasn�t discovered till the 19th century.

excreationist · 01-03-2002, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pug846:
�Evolution� in some sense had been known for quite a long time. The specific mechanism of natural selection wasn�t discovered till the 19th century.

I meant that people generally had to believe in a creator of some sort - that's why many of the founding fathers were deists. (I think Hume was an atheist though. (?))

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]

DarkDruid · 01-03-2002, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
The same goes for the attempt to paint Hitler with the atheist brush, eventhough the Germans as a volk are/were extremely christian and justified the holocaust based upon the fact that the Jewish people were "christ killers" (Christm�rder)

It is also worth mentioning that Hitler made it abundantly clear in Mein Kampf that he believed in God and was doing his will. A Christian might try to say Hitler was trying to win favor with the German people by saying this, but if you know anything about Mein Kampf, you'll also know he did not make up *anything* to sound good in there.

excreationist · 01-03-2002, 05:17 PM

About Hitler and Christianity...
here's a good link:
<a href="http://www.arabianebazaar.com/ac/hitler.htm" target="_blank">Was Hitler a Christian?</a>

Quote:

"The national government ... will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality." - Adolf Hiter, The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872.
"Today Christians ... stand at the head of Germany ... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years." - Adolf Hitler. Ibid, pg. 871-872.

...
Look at three of the most distinguished German Protestant theologians--Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch. These men were highly respected, extremely erudite, uncommonly productive, and internationally known professors, each at a different, first-class university....
"They each supported Hitler openly, enthusiastically, and with little restraint." In fact, they deemed it the Christian thing to do. They "saw themselves and were seen by others as genuine Christians acting upon genuine Christian impulses." Furthermore, all three tended "to see God's hand in the elevation of Hitler to power." Hirsch was a member of the Nazi party and of the SS. The Nazi state, he said, should be accepted and supported by Christians as a tool of God's grace. To Althaus, Hitler's coming to power was "a gift and miracle of God." He taught that "we Christians know ourselves bound by God's will to the promotion of National Socialism."

Kittel and a group of twelve leading theologians and pastors issued a proclamation that Nazism is "a call of God," and they thanked God for Adolf Hitler. Kittel was a party member and he himself proudly claimed that he was a good Nazi. He explains that he did not join it as a result of pressure or for pragmatic reasons but because he concluded that the Nazi phenomenon was "a v�lkisch renewal movement on a Christian, moral foundation." He accorded Christianity a place of honor in Nazi Germany precisely because of its position on the Jewish Question. He said he was speaking for other theologians too when he maintained that agreement with state and F�hrer was obedience to the law of God.

These theologians were drenched in anti-Semitism. For example, throughout the whole of the Nazi era, Kittel's writings, Erickson has determined, "correspond to and support Nazi politics, including all of the policies on the Jewish question, with the possible exception of genocide," but one is led to wonder. He never spoke out against extermination. Indeed, he actually propounded what was purported to be a theologically solid Christian justification for the oppression of the Jews, whom he referred to as "refuse."

Kittel discusses what he deems to be the only four options for dealing with the Jews. He rejects extermination but not at all because of humanitarian motivation but because he thinks it does not work. In fact, he warns against "so-called" Christian sensitivity, saying the faith is not weak sentimentality but a strong, principled anti-Jewish force. His solution is to strip Jews of German citizenship and make them "guests." He would deprive them of civil rights, debar them from the professions, keep them from marrying Germans, prohibit them from teaching Germans, and impose on them other disadvantages and hardships....

There is also <a href="http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/luther_jews/15_treat.html" target="_blank">Martin Luther's "The Jews and Their Lies</a>. Note that although Luther was against the extermination of the Jews, extermination of undesirables was common in the O.T., and even ordered by God.

But I guess that is sort of changing the subject....

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]

Prax · 01-04-2002, 06:56 AM

i think its also worth mentioning that communism is _not_ a form of government...it has been 'spun' into a form of government by our leaders over the past 50 years to control and gain popular opinion/support for our governments imperialistic hegemony. it is _not_ a metaphysical position either. it is an _economic system_. to date, the most famous of the 'communist governments' were more appropriately 'totalitarian governments' with a communist economic system.
blaming the form of a governments economy for its totalitarian leadership policies seems a bit assumptive to me. the conceptual basis of communism (in short: a class-less society) is very much admirable, (imho).
however, coupling it with a totalitarian regime is where it has historically gone wrong, and where the 'atrocities' come from. they were perpetrated in the name of power and dictatorship, not in the name of communism, per say.
we dont live in a capitalist government, we live within a democratic republic with a capitalist economic system.
stalin didnt create a communist government. he created a totalitarian dictatorship with a communist economic system.
communist = atheist is not factual...many are...but they do not go hand in hand. thats as silly as saying capitalist = theist.

i posit that atheism and communism are the resultant positions of a commitment to reason in all aspects of one's life and in no reasonable way linked to the atrocities of the few. this is different from widely accepted christian atrocities (e.g. crusades, inquisition, etc) in which the name of god was invoked and presented to the generally available public as the reason for the killing and destruction. _very_ different motivations, imho.

/doda

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: D.O.D.A ]

jdawg2 · 01-07-2002, 09:43 PM

the biggest difference between atrocities done "in the name of atheism" is that atheism isn't really a worldview in the strict sense of the word as I believe someone else pointed out. There's no belief system that goes along with being an atheist, no books you have to follow, no people to worship, nothing. It's just lack of a belief in god. That's the only thing one can accuse atheists of having in common.

I'm sure when all the Crusade stuff and slavery was going down, people had specific bible verses that supported their position, so I think it's valid to say that Christianity can be a "cause" for violent acts, if the guidebook that one is required to live by (unless there's such thing as a Christian who doesn't believe in the bible, lol)condones that kind of stuff.

Where can you find that about atheism? Hey, Stalin wasn't a woman, so him being an afemale caused him to do all that crazy stuff *shrug*

dangin · 01-08-2002, 07:39 AM

Another important thing to consider is that atheism alone is not capable of mass murder on this scale. One must have power/authority over a population to kill a large portion of that population. Pol Pot, Stallin, Hitler, Mao, all had totalitarian power, and that is the enabler of the mass murders, not atheism. It is relevant that religious folks in the same power structures have performed the same deeds. In fact, Moses is guilty of the genocide of countless peoples according to the OT, and he was certainly not an atheist.

Every day atheism, just like every day religion is not capable of genocide, it must be mixed with authoritarian power, so the true killer of millions, is power not religious beliefs of any sort.

Danielboy · 01-13-2002, 11:48 PM

I feel that it may be true to say more athiests killed more people than christians. It is up to someone to verify that more murderer were atheists or christians.

But it is certainly illogical and untrue to say that atheism killed more people than christianity.

I have yet to hear of terrorism in the name of atheism.

Vorkosigan · 01-14-2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Danielboy:
I feel that it may be true to say more athiests killed more people than christians. It is up to someone to verify that more murderer were atheists or christians.

But it is certainly illogical and untrue to say that atheism killed more people than christianity.

I have yet to hear of terrorism in the name of atheism.

Considering that even in Russia, atheism never reached more than 30% of the population, no doubt the vast majority of those in the Russian killing machine were Christians, especially the further one got from the top.

Michael

ManM · 01-14-2002, 09:29 AM

You know, it seems to me that power and wealth are usually the motivating forces behind atrocities. Instead of trying to point fingers at our opponents beliefs, maybe we should look into human nature? I fail to see how body count bears any relevance to the morality of a belief. Let the belief stand on it's own and criticize it accordingly.

01-04-2002, 06:56 AM	#15
Prax Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: earth Posts: 12	i think its also worth mentioning that communism is _not_ a form of government...it has been 'spun' into a form of government by our leaders over the past 50 years to control and gain popular opinion/support for our governments imperialistic hegemony. it is _not_ a metaphysical position either. it is an _economic system_. to date, the most famous of the 'communist governments' were more appropriately 'totalitarian governments' with a communist economic system. blaming the form of a governments economy for its totalitarian leadership policies seems a bit assumptive to me. the conceptual basis of communism (in short: a class-less society) is very much admirable, (imho). however, coupling it with a totalitarian regime is where it has historically gone wrong, and where the 'atrocities' come from. they were perpetrated in the name of power and dictatorship, not in the name of communism, per say. we dont live in a capitalist government, we live within a democratic republic with a capitalist economic system. stalin didnt create a communist government. he created a totalitarian dictatorship with a communist economic system. communist = atheist is not factual...many are...but they do not go hand in hand. thats as silly as saying capitalist = theist. i posit that atheism and communism are the resultant positions of a commitment to reason in all aspects of one's life and in no reasonable way linked to the atrocities of the few. this is different from widely accepted christian atrocities (e.g. crusades, inquisition, etc) in which the name of god was invoked and presented to the generally available public as the reason for the killing and destruction. _very_ different motivations, imho. /doda [ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: D.O.D.A ]</p>

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01-07-2002, 09:43 PM	#16
jdawg2 Regular Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Cedar Hill, TX USA Posts: 113	the biggest difference between atrocities done "in the name of atheism" is that atheism isn't really a worldview in the strict sense of the word as I believe someone else pointed out. There's no belief system that goes along with being an atheist, no books you have to follow, no people to worship, nothing. It's just lack of a belief in god. That's the only thing one can accuse atheists of having in common. I'm sure when all the Crusade stuff and slavery was going down, people had specific bible verses that supported their position, so I think it's valid to say that Christianity can be a "cause" for violent acts, if the guidebook that one is required to live by (unless there's such thing as a Christian who doesn't believe in the bible, lol)condones that kind of stuff. Where can you find that about atheism? Hey, Stalin wasn't a woman, so him being an afemale caused him to do all that crazy stuff shrug

01-08-2002, 07:39 AM	#17
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Another important thing to consider is that atheism alone is not capable of mass murder on this scale. One must have power/authority over a population to kill a large portion of that population. Pol Pot, Stallin, Hitler, Mao, all had totalitarian power, and that is the enabler of the mass murders, not atheism. It is relevant that religious folks in the same power structures have performed the same deeds. In fact, Moses is guilty of the genocide of countless peoples according to the OT, and he was certainly not an atheist. Every day atheism, just like every day religion is not capable of genocide, it must be mixed with authoritarian power, so the true killer of millions, is power not religious beliefs of any sort.

01-13-2002, 11:48 PM	#18
Danielboy Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 249	I feel that it may be true to say more athiests killed more people than christians. It is up to someone to verify that more murderer were atheists or christians. But it is certainly illogical and untrue to say that atheism killed more people than christianity. I have yet to hear of terrorism in the name of atheism.

01-14-2002, 09:29 AM	#20
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	You know, it seems to me that power and wealth are usually the motivating forces behind atrocities. Instead of trying to point fingers at our opponents beliefs, maybe we should look into human nature? I fail to see how body count bears any relevance to the morality of a belief. Let the belief stand on it's own and criticize it accordingly.

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