Freethought & Rationalism Archive

eldar1011 · 04-25-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I'm glad to see specifics spelled out because it makes for a useful discussion. Nevertheless, it's the old "A good God would have zapped them" argument. I've already ponted out that, taken to it's logical implication, this argument requires God to be a policeman waith 10,000 arms or some kind of zap guns reaching all over the world and solving every problem we choose to create.

Yes, he could do that, but you see, it does not achieve his goal, which is a kingdom of willing servants he can trust implicitly. We are indebted to one commentator (Christian?) who said he would rather have ten willing soldiers under his command than a hundred conscripts. Do you want a world full of people motivated by love and righteousness, or just let them be unrighteousness and control them with fear? And where does it end? Should he zap women on their way to abortion clinics? Should he give mild shock treatments to women porn shp owners until the close up.

God knows where it ends. It doesn't, and it won't work.

Uh, why exactly won't it work?

Being an atheist by way of skepticism, I'm pretty sure it would work. At the very least, you can count one less atheist in the world. I'd be pretty convinced by thunderbolts out of the blue striking down people on a consistent basis. A God-cop patrolling the world would pretty much end my atheism.

A God-cop would also pretty much guarantee a world of willing servants. Willing to be spared the wrath of God-cop, at any rate.

And in the end, isn't that what it's all about. Even without God-cop, isn't fear of damnation the prime motivator behind "loving" God? Sure, I guess that heaven as a wonderful happy place can be a motivator, but why even have hell, then?

Shouldn't heaven be sufficient enough of a draw of people? If it were, then we'd have a world motivated by love. But, clearly isn't not sufficient. Hell guarantees that all those who aren't motivated by love will be motivated by fear and put in question the sincerity of the "lovers".

gravitybow · 04-25-2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Radorth:
Yes, he could do that, but you see, it does not achieve his goal, which is a kingdom of willing servants he can trust implicitly. We are indebted to one commentator (Christian?) who said he would rather have ten willing soldiers under his command than a hundred conscripts. Do you want a world full of people motivated by love and righteousness, or just let them be unrighteousness and control them with fear?

If you're the vanguard of love and righteousness in God's new kingdom, then God help us all.

Debbie T · 04-25-2003, 11:33 AM

Rad, Do you ever post without taking pot shots against the person you are posting to? Do you ever have anything nice to say about a non Christian? And please don't use the excuse about what another person does to excuse your own behavior. I find that lame and childish, you are the one responsible for your behavior.

If you do post without slamming someone can you please point it out? So far when I see the name RAD on a post I know it is going to end up being a mean and obnoxious post to someone else.

Stormy · 04-25-2003, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDarwin
I often hear God answers all prayers or sometimes God answers all prayers, but the answer can be "yes", "no", or "not now". But nobody seems to want to touch the sad case of Lesley Ann Downey:

So just a couple of quick questions:

1. Did God answer Lesley Ann's prayers?

2. If Lesley Ann perceived (rightly or wrongly) that God had not answered her prayers--and because of that she came to disbelieve in God before she was murdered--is she damned to Yousuffer eternally?

So God is to blame for all the evil of mankind?

He gave us all free will and some of us use it to torment and kill others ....

so you say... that proves it.... God is bad!

But on the same hand...

When I tell you that God will have his justice! Evil will be punished! You again say... God is bad.

What is it you want?

Would you only believe in a God that pulled your strings like a puppet?

christ-on-a-stick · 04-25-2003, 12:21 PM

Hi Stormy,

How would you respond to my question above? (I'll restate it - )

Quote:

If God can EVER intervene in human affairs to save or rescue someone from harm without interfering with Free Will, why can he not ALWAYS choose to intervene to stop such things such as rape, murder, child abuse, and torture?

Do you believe that God *EVER* intervenes in human affairs? I.E., miracles, "saving" people from harm, etc.? If so, then obviously God's intervention doesn't preclude "free will" - or, it does, and that is ok sometimes.

Which is it?

Stormy · 04-25-2003, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by christ-on-a-stick
Hi Stormy,

How would you respond to my question above? (I'll restate it - )

Do you believe that God *EVER* intervenes in human affairs? I.E., miracles, "saving" people from harm, etc.? If so, then obviously God's intervention doesn't preclude "free will" - or, it does, and that is ok sometimes.

Which is it?

If your confused, just think how that makes me.

You are asking a poor little Christian to explain all that God does.

Yes, God has intervened in my life. That is a fact... that no one has explained away.

There was even a time, not long ago on CF, where I started a thread to complain about God. I was so mad at his apparently hands-off approach to most of our human misery.

The only answer I received was... Trust.

Jamie_L · 04-25-2003, 01:22 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Radorth

Quote:

this argument requires God to be a policeman with 10,000 arms or some kind of zap guns reaching all over the world and solving every problem we choose to create.

"God solves no problems" and "God solves all problems" are not the only two choices. As implied in the OP (long lost and partly my fault - sorry), many Christians already believe God intervenes sometimes and not others. God could noticeably reduce suffering in the world without having to micromanage everything. It seems there is suffering in this world that is unnecessary for creating willing servants to God. Surely there would not be fewer willing servents to God if more mass murderers died of heart attacks each year. Surely there would not be fewer servants to God if the WTC towers had been damaged but not collapsed on Sept. 11. There is some level of intervention that would not stop people from freely serving God, and I believe that level is significantly higher than the "no verifiable intervention" that we have now.

Quote:

Do you want a world full of people motivated by love and righteousness, or just let them be unrighteousness and control them with fear?

The people who currently choose God out of righteousness and love would not suddenly do so out of fear if God was intervening in our affairs more directly. All these people currently believe in a divine judgement, yet, they say they act out of love and righteousness. I take them at their word. Moving divine judgement to the hear and now would not suddenly make these people less righteous or God-loving.

The only people who would follow God out of fear would be the ones who currently don't follow him at all. These people aren't following out of love and righteousness now, so where's the loss to everyone else if they are following, but aren't doing so out of love and righteousness? God will know whoe is righteous and who is not.

I would rather live in a world where 50% of people are righteous and 50% only act righteous, rather than a world where 50% of people are righteous and 50% are evil people who fill the world with suffering.

Furthermore, I would argue, if God had some limited intervention policy that saved people from rape and torture and cancer and earthquakes, there might be more people who followed him out of love. Those of us on the fence, who aren't really out there commiting evil, but who don't see any signs of a loving God would realize the truth of things. The fence-sitters would see God's concern for humanity first-hand.

In short, intervention would not bring any less people into loving relationships with God. It might bring more people to God, and it would certainly allow more people to live long enough to develop a relationship with God.

Jamie

Sci_Fidelity · 04-25-2003, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Yes, God has intervened in my life. That is a fact... that no one has explained away

You have proof of this which will stand up to scrutiny, right?

spurly · 04-25-2003, 01:24 PM

This is an interesting question that theologians and philosophers have debated for years. Do we live in an open universe, where God intervense from the outside? Or do we live in a closed universe, that is even closed to the intervention of God?

Another interesting question is what is the purpose of prayer? Is it to beg God to act on our behalf or something else? Is prayer primarily for the deepening of the relationship of the one who is praying with God and giving them the strength and encouragement they need? Are there times when God does intervene directly?

If there are times when God does choose to enter into our world and intervene directly, I would say they are few and far between. Instead he has allowed us the freedom to make choices, and he has allowed us the freedom, as individuals and as societies, to suffer the consequences and benefit from the rewards of the choices that we make.

God does not pull us all around like monkeys in a cage trying to get us to do what he wants us to do. He could do that, but he has chosen not to. Instead, he prompts hearts and tries to get us to see the beauty of living this life for his honor and glory and not for our own.

Have I seen someone who had an answer to prayer that could be nothing else? Yes. But not very many.

Why is that? I don't know. I have a few guesses, and I will list them below.

1) This is not heaven/paradise. We live in a fallen world. As such, if God answered all prayers for healing, etc., down here - we would never die. Thus we would stay in this fallen world forever and never get back to the relationship with God that he intended for us to have.

2) If God split the heavens to be our bellhop to answer every prayer we offered, who would not believe in him. He wants us to choose to believe in him because we love him, not for what we can get out of it. Many people would just believe for their own self-interest if this were the case.

3) He answers our prayers in ways that we can't even explain. Sometimes he gives us things that we don't even realize he is giving us.

4) He expects us to use the gifts he has given us to transform society, and to help rid the world of evil like the one that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread. He has placed that job in our hands.

Kevin

Rhea · 04-25-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

God does not pull us all around like monkeys in a cage trying to get us to do what he wants us to do. He could do that, but he has chosen not to. Instead, he prompts hearts and tries to get us to see the beauty of living this life for his honor and glory and not for our own.

_NOW_, you mean. He has chosen not to _now_. Or _any_more_ one might say.

'Cause I think the red sea incident was rather monkey-like.

I'd put the water-into-wine thing as pulling folks around, too.

...

And what do you mean, people would believe for selfish reasons. What? No, we not talking about needing to see riches and personal advantage, we're just a little concerned about being convinced that it _exists_.

The burning bush was selfish?
The pillar of salt?
Sun standing still?
3 hours of darkness?
Resurrecting Lazarus?

Those selfish, selfish early believers. What? They needed proof to believe? And god gave it to them?

What?

04-25-2003, 11:33 AM	#53
Debbie T Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Washington the state Posts: 406	Side question for Rad Rad, Do you ever post without taking pot shots against the person you are posting to? Do you ever have anything nice to say about a non Christian? And please don't use the excuse about what another person does to excuse your own behavior. I find that lame and childish, you are the one responsible for your behavior. If you do post without slamming someone can you please point it out? So far when I see the name RAD on a post I know it is going to end up being a mean and obnoxious post to someone else.

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04-25-2003, 01:24 PM	#59
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	This is an interesting question that theologians and philosophers have debated for years. Do we live in an open universe, where God intervense from the outside? Or do we live in a closed universe, that is even closed to the intervention of God? Another interesting question is what is the purpose of prayer? Is it to beg God to act on our behalf or something else? Is prayer primarily for the deepening of the relationship of the one who is praying with God and giving them the strength and encouragement they need? Are there times when God does intervene directly? If there are times when God does choose to enter into our world and intervene directly, I would say they are few and far between. Instead he has allowed us the freedom to make choices, and he has allowed us the freedom, as individuals and as societies, to suffer the consequences and benefit from the rewards of the choices that we make. God does not pull us all around like monkeys in a cage trying to get us to do what he wants us to do. He could do that, but he has chosen not to. Instead, he prompts hearts and tries to get us to see the beauty of living this life for his honor and glory and not for our own. Have I seen someone who had an answer to prayer that could be nothing else? Yes. But not very many. Why is that? I don't know. I have a few guesses, and I will list them below. 1) This is not heaven/paradise. We live in a fallen world. As such, if God answered all prayers for healing, etc., down here - we would never die. Thus we would stay in this fallen world forever and never get back to the relationship with God that he intended for us to have. 2) If God split the heavens to be our bellhop to answer every prayer we offered, who would not believe in him. He wants us to choose to believe in him because we love him, not for what we can get out of it. Many people would just believe for their own self-interest if this were the case. 3) He answers our prayers in ways that we can't even explain. Sometimes he gives us things that we don't even realize he is giving us. 4) He expects us to use the gifts he has given us to transform society, and to help rid the world of evil like the one that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread. He has placed that job in our hands. Kevin

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