Godless Wonder

Something I can agree with.
And rightly so, unless they provide some objectively verifiable reasons for their beliefs. This is where your equating of modern religious people with ancient round-earthers-in-a-flat-earher's-society gets on shaky ground. The people that were proposing the round earth had good reasons for doing so. I don't think any of them got their ideas from ancient so-called "authoritative" books and demanded that other people see the truth printed in these books, never mind the obvious evidence of the world around them. Instead they used the very evidence of the world around them to show the earth was round in a way that anyone so inclined could verify the theory for himself, or could try to provide evidence to contradict the theory. I think you know all this already, so I'm surprised you're making this analogy. A better analogy might be to equate modern relidious people with ancient toroidal-earthers, (if any such people existed). Back in their time, those people might have been right. Today, nobody thinks the world is doughnut shaped. (well, I hope not. Recently, I've learned people will believe anything.)

Magus55

And by what reasoning do you come to this statement as being factual? ( No input from the peanut gallery please - the OP's answer only).

winstonjen

Well, it certainly makes more sense than the alternative.

Magus55

How do you figure? How does the universe and life spontanteously forming all by itself, with no cause, make more sense than the ultimate Creator setting things in to motion? Even if you ignore the Bible as the innerant word of God ( generically speaking - im well aware you already do), how does matter forming living things from nothing make more sense? If Abiogenesis and Evolution were so concrete and understandable, it wouldn't be changed every other week, and it wouldn't take a doctorate degree for your opinions on the subject to have merit. Anyone can understand God's creation and seek Him out, whether you are a billionaire, or homeless, a genious or ordinary joe smith. That makes more sense to me than an effect without a cause.

And tell me this winston - what is the difference between the universe and matter always existing, and God always existing? The difference to me is, one has intelligence and wisdom ( God), and the other is spontaneous with no reason or cause behind the effect.

winstonjen

How does a creator with no cause make sense to you, then?

Evolution has not been fully understood yet.

So? The result is the same. The 'intelligence' of god (if he exists) also resulted in the ebola virus, the human appendix, which doesn't do anything except possibly rupture and kill us.

Now, Magus, my turn to question you - did you think of this yourself, or did the fundies at Rapture Ready suggest these responses to you?

goat37

You just take it one step further than the atheist does... he says that the universe has always existed without cause, and you say that God created the universe, and God has always existed without cause.

You are in a position of power here in that your statement isn't bound by the laws of the universe. You get an exemption so to speak. If it doesn't exist in the universe, than we really can't debate it or argue it because it is beyond our comprehension.
What I believe is that the reason God created the universe, and that he has always existed forever, is so that we don't have to take any further steps forward.

However, if we say that the universe has always existed and was without cause, you run into a few problems with the BB theory as well as incomplete scientific theory regarding the 'first cause'.

So you can either say "God has always existed, and since there is no way for us to ever get outside of the universe to see what is really there, we have to accept it as true."

or

You could say "I don't know what the first cause of the universe is because science has not yet finished it's theory, a work in progress. It will sure as hell be one fun journey trying to finish it though!

So therefore, all you have really done is put God outside of your concept of reason and rationality, and set up a scenario that cannot be refuted because we have no proof either way.

Magus55

Because God isn't a material being. He has no natural laws binding Him. He doesn't need a cause to exist, He is the ultimate cause. God always was, is and will be. He is everlasting and eternal.

Do you know of any instance since the dawn of time, where an effect happened without a cause?



Then how can you claim it makes more sense than God, when you don't understand Him either?



No, the intelligence of God didn't cause that - the stupidity of man and the abuse of God's gifts is what caused it. And i'll have to look it up, but I remember hearing or reading somewhere, where the appendix does actually serve a purpose of helping to fight off disease. It isn't required, but it isn't vestigial either.

And why would anyone at RR have suggested these responses to me?

winstonjen

No laws...including his Own Nature (TM)?

The creation of religion. It is so hollow and empty, almost without substance, you could say. It needs no natural laws, just like your god.

I understand your depiction of him. That's enough to make a judgement about it.

Well, your god decided that all this would happen if sin entered the world, and he knew that sin would enter, hence he is responsible. QED again.

Sources for the usefulness of the appendix, please. I always thought that white blood cells fought infection.

Well, you post at RR, don't you?

Magus55

The difference being, based on all of our current understanding, observations, and assumptions - it is impossible for the universe to have come about without a cause.

We can't disprove God since He is outside our realm of knowledge, but we at least have a basic explanation of God before time, that we don't have of the natural universe. Sure you discredit the Bible as being valid, but Christians accept it as truth, and therefore have an understanding of God.

winstonjen

Riiiiight...so if we accept it as truth and dispose of all evidence against it, we'll understand god, too? So much for free thinking.